The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Augoustinos, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5604 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 82 guests, and 453 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,747
Posts412,013
Members5,604
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 12 13
Recent interview with Fr. Taft #393812 05/01/13 12:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668
J
Jaya Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668
"Building Bridges Between Orthodox and Catholic Christians" - Recent interview with Fr. Taft. Article dated 5/1/13:

Catholic World Report

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: Jaya] #393813 05/01/13 12:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668
J
Jaya Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 668
Hmmm...I guess I didn't do that right, as the link doesn't seem to work. I'll paste it here, and see if that works:

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...en_orthodox_and_catholic_christians.aspx

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft #393818 05/01/13 06:08 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
L
likethethief Offline
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,206
Quote
Catholic World Report had the recent privilege of asking Archimandrite Robert Taft, SJ for his perspective on current Orthodox-Catholic relations.


I'm always glad to hear what Fr Taft has to say, and to see him in the "news" outside of academia.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: Jaya] #393826 05/02/13 06:39 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: ajk] #393831 05/02/13 02:20 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.


However, as Miller himself points out, Fr. Taft is not the only eccesiologist on the block. But Fr. Taft is learned enough to understand that even an ever so slightly ultramontanist ecclesiology post Vatican 2 tilt will derail any progress in ecumenical dialogue between the Church of Rome and the other Apostolc, Catholic Churches of Orthodoxy. The prime issue was, is and shall remain reaching consensus among the ancient churches as to defining the role of the primus.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: Jaya] #393834 05/02/13 02:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Indeed, it would take many Miller's to fill just one of Archimandrite Robert's shoes.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: ajk] #393835 05/02/13 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
I
IAlmisry Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.

So, we can add Fr. Taft to the list of those who "do not instruct their people adequately and update them"?

Or is Mr. Miller "One Catholic remedy for this—its usefulness proven by the rage it provokes in the exposed bigots—is the factual diffusion of their views, objectively and without editorial comment...permanently recorded for posterity, thereby exposing them to the public embarrassment they merit. This is especially important for some representatives... who speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing at international ecumenical venues, and quite another for the consumption of [non-]Orthodox audiences or in publications they do not expect the []Orthodox to read."?

Why is someone "whose father was Ukrainian Catholic and whose mother was of the Latin rite" calling Fr. Taft "Abouna"?

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: DMD] #393836 05/02/13 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
I
IAlmisry Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.


However, as Miller himself points out, Fr. Taft is not the only eccesiologist on the block. But Fr. Taft is learned enough to understand that even an ever so slightly ultramontanist ecclesiology post Vatican 2 tilt will derail any progress in ecumenical dialogue between the Church of Rome and the other Apostolc, Catholic Churches of Orthodoxy. The prime issue was, is and shall remain reaching consensus among the ancient churches as to defining the role of the primus.

You first have to get us to agree such a thing exists.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: IAlmisry] #393847 05/03/13 01:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
I
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member
Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Why is someone "whose father was Ukrainian Catholic and whose mother was of the Latin rite" calling Fr. Taft "Abouna"?


Not exactly the most important question, but I wondered exactly the same thing as Isa.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: DMD] #393851 05/03/13 07:58 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.


However, as Miller himself points out, Fr. Taft is not the only eccesiologist on the block. But Fr. Taft is learned enough to understand that even an ever so slightly ultramontanist ecclesiology post Vatican 2 tilt will derail any progress in ecumenical dialogue between the Church of Rome and the other Apostolc, Catholic Churches of Orthodoxy. The prime issue was, is and shall remain reaching consensus among the ancient churches as to defining the role of the primus.
I don't consider Fr. Taft an ecclesiologist which is why some latitude is in order in interpreting him and some additional commentary is in order to clarify. The original Catholic documents addressing the term "sister churches" must be consulted.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: StuartK] #393852 05/03/13 07:59 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Originally Posted by StuartK
Indeed, it would take many Miller's to fill just one of Archimandrite Robert's shoes.
There is no need to fill shoes, just be precise and accurate.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: IAlmisry] #393853 05/03/13 08:08 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
ajk Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,983
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.

So, we can add Fr. Taft to the list of those who "do not instruct their people adequately and update them"?

Or is Mr. Miller "One Catholic remedy for this—its usefulness proven by the rage it provokes in the exposed bigots—is the factual diffusion of their views, objectively and without editorial comment...permanently recorded for posterity, thereby exposing them to the public embarrassment they merit. This is especially important for some representatives... who speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing at international ecumenical venues, and quite another for the consumption of [non-]Orthodox audiences or in publications they do not expect the []Orthodox to read."?
All I said about Fr. Robert was:
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology.
This is true.

Also, the full quote of Fr. Robert is:
Quote
Taft: Part of the problem is that some Orthodox do not instruct their people adequately and update them, so ecumenical progress on the upper level often does not filter down to the ordinary faithful. In addition of course, there is the problem of the bigotry of many of the monastics and others towards anyone who is not Orthodox. On how they square this with what Christianity is supposed to be according to Jesus’ explicit teaching in the New Testament, we still await their explanation. One Catholic remedy for this—its usefulness proven by the rage it provokes in the exposed bigots—is the factual diffusion of their views, objectively and without editorial comment, in publications like Irénikon in French, or in English Father Ronald Roberson’s highly informative monthly SEIA Newsletter on the Eastern Churches and Ecumenism, distributed gratis to subscribers via email and eventually preserved for permanent reference in the Eastern Churches Journal. These publications just give the news without comment, including quotations from the bigots permanently recorded for posterity, thereby exposing them to the public embarrassment they merit. This is especially important for some representatives of Orthodoxy who speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing at international ecumenical venues, and quite another for the consumption of Orthodox audiences or in publications they do not expect the non-Orthodox to read.
This is also true (and does not involve "sister churches" terminology).

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: ajk] #393856 05/03/13 10:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
I
IAlmisry Offline
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.

So, we can add Fr. Taft to the list of those who "do not instruct their people adequately and update them"?

Or is Mr. Miller "One Catholic remedy for this—its usefulness proven by the rage it provokes in the exposed bigots—is the factual diffusion of their views, objectively and without editorial comment...permanently recorded for posterity, thereby exposing them to the public embarrassment they merit. This is especially important for some representatives... who speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing at international ecumenical venues, and quite another for the consumption of [non-]Orthodox audiences or in publications they do not expect the []Orthodox to read."?
All I said about Fr. Robert was:
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology.
This is true.

Also, the full quote of Fr. Robert is:
Quote
Taft: Part of the problem is that some Orthodox do not instruct their people adequately and update them, so ecumenical progress on the upper level often does not filter down to the ordinary faithful. In addition of course, there is the problem of the bigotry of many of the monastics and others towards anyone who is not Orthodox. On how they square this with what Christianity is supposed to be according to Jesus’ explicit teaching in the New Testament, we still await their explanation. One Catholic remedy for this—its usefulness proven by the rage it provokes in the exposed bigots—is the factual diffusion of their views, objectively and without editorial comment, in publications like Irénikon in French, or in English Father Ronald Roberson’s highly informative monthly SEIA Newsletter on the Eastern Churches and Ecumenism, distributed gratis to subscribers via email and eventually preserved for permanent reference in the Eastern Churches Journal. These publications just give the news without comment, including quotations from the bigots permanently recorded for posterity, thereby exposing them to the public embarrassment they merit. This is especially important for some representatives of Orthodoxy who speak out of both sides of their mouth, saying one thing at international ecumenical venues, and quite another for the consumption of Orthodox audiences or in publications they do not expect the non-Orthodox to read.
This is also true (and does not involve "sister churches" terminology).

Evidently, according to the second link, it does. It would be nice to clarify the actual lung tissue of the eastern lung according to the diagnosis of Fr. Taft and his magisterium.

"Sister Churches": A Clarification #393887 05/03/13 05:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
T
Tomassus Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
"Sister Churches": A Clarification

May 02, 2013
By Michael J. Miller
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2227/sister_churches_a_clarification.aspx

I met the Right Reverend Archimandrite Robert Taft, S.J., at an Eastern-rite monastery that I was visiting in 1985. The community was still in the refectory, whereas I happened to be near the vestibule, so I was the one who went to the front door when he rang. There was a moment of confusion: I had had no idea that the monks were expecting such a renowned guest, and the guest may have expected a more formal reception. Yet it was fitting that a Jesuit scholar of the Byzantine liturgy should be greeted by a “porter” whose father was Ukrainian Catholic and whose mother was of the Latin rite.

With all due respect to Abouna [Father] Robert, who for decades has served the Catholic Church well as an erudite scholar and a tireless ecumenist, he insistently uses the expression “Sister Churches” in a way that could easily be misleading in his recent interview with Catholic World Report. The editor helpfully linked the expression to a page that thoroughly explains the significance of “particular Churches” in post-Vatican-II ecclesiology. For those who have neither the patience nor the theological training to synthesize the wealth of information on that page, this blog post may help clarify the matter.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church begins its teaching about the article of faith from the Creed, “I believe in the holy catholic Church,” with a few notes on terminology. “In Christian usage, the word ‘church’ designates [1] the liturgical assembly, but also [2] the local community or [3] the whole universal community of believers. These three meanings are inseparable” (CCC 752). In everyday conversation we move easily and without confusion among these different meanings. “We went to church this morning [1].” “I’m registered at the Church of the Annunciation [2].” “Christ promised to be with His Church always [3].”

Because a diocese is normally headed by a bishop, who has the fullness of Holy Orders, while a parish is usually headed by a priest, in theological discussion the second usage of “Church” usually refers to a “local Church” or a “particular Church”. In the Latin rite this is called a diocese or an archdiocese; “eparchy” and “archeparchy” are names for it in the Byzantine rite. The relations between this “mid-sized” Church [2] and the other two connotations of “Church” can be discerned in the New Testament and are stated clearly as early as the second century in the Letters of Saint Ignatius. The local Church exists—for example, in Philadelphia or in Ephesus—for the sake of liturgical worship, which inaugurates and sustains the life of grace in Christians; moreover the Eucharist and even the sacrament of marriage is always to be celebrated in union with the local bishop (i.e. with his approval if he does not actually preside). The connection between the local Church [2] and the universal Church [3] is evident in Ignatius’ insistence on the unity of faith and the reality of Christ’s [Mystical] Body.

The expression “Sister Churches” is not theological but historical and (in recent years) diplomatic. Fr. Adriano Garuti, O.F.M., a professor of ecclesiology and ecumenism who has served with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, writes: “The intention behind such language is the establishment of the reality of sister Churches as a possible way to ‘envisage reunion among divided traditions as a family reconciliation’.... One does get the impression, however, that a certain ambiguity and lack of continuity prevail in the use of the term.” The uses and misuses of this expression are examined in depth in his essay “Sister Churches: Reality and Questions” (reprinted in the book Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and the Ecumenical Dialogue by the same author.)

The early Church in the East was organized not only by locality but regionally. A “Metropolia” united several local eparchies and/or archeparchies in an administrative unit. Within such a unit, two neighboring eparchies would be regarded as “Daughter Churches” of the Metropolia and therefore “Sister Churches” to one another. Fr. Garuti notes “the special sensibility of the Eastern Christians for the fraternity that exists among the individual [local] Churches [2]”. He immediately goes on to add, however, that “when it is a question of the principles on which to build unity, ... the [Universal Catholic] Church [3] cannot be considered a sister [e.g. to the Orthodox Churches (2)], but rather the Mother of the local Churches.”

When Pope Francis referred to himself as “the Bishop of Rome” in his first public speech on the balcony of St. Peter’s Basilica, he was humbly acknowledging that in the first place he had been elected the Bishop of Rome, a local Church. As Bishop of Rome he can greet Orthodox bishops of other localities as “brother bishops”, since they head “sister Churches [2]”. But the Bishop of Rome is also ex officio the Pastor of the Universal Church [3], and there is no corresponding office or “unit” in the Orthodox world, nor could there ever be.

Joseph Ratzinger pointed this out as early as 1966, just after the completion of the Second Vatican Council. At a Catholic Conference in Bamberg he urged caution when speaking about “the Churches” in the plural, warning against “a euphoria ... that forgets to makes difficult demands on itself and overlooks the fact that the Catholic Church dares and must dare to take the paradoxical position of attributing to herself in a unique way the singular form, ‘the Church’ [3], despite and in the midst of the plurality [2] she has accepted.” (Quoted in Joseph Ratzinger: Life in the Church and Living Theology by Maximilian Heinrich Heim.) Because it can lead to misunderstandings between Catholics and Orthodox, Joseph Ratzinger scrupulously avoided the expression “Sister Churches” in his extensive writings on ecumenism.

In conclusion: the Right Rev. Archimandrite Robert Taft is not the only ecclesiologist on the block. If he had used the expression “particular Churches” in his interview, he would have been more accurate, because that (and not “Sister Churches”) is the expression that has been enshrined in the Catechism and in post-conciliar Catholic ecclesiology.

About the Author: Michael J. Miller translated Joseph Ratzinger: Life in the Church and Living Theology: Fundamentals of Ecclesiology with Reference to Lumen Gentium, by Maximilian Heinrich Heim for Ignatius Press.

Re: Recent interview with Fr. Taft [Re: ajk] #393888 05/03/13 06:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by ajk
I picked up some "sister churches" terminology in Fr. Robert's remarks that may give the wrong impression of Catholic understanding and theology/ecclesiology. See the link on the interview page, upper right-hand-side: The CWR Blog "Sister Churches": A Clarification.

Indeed. He said: "we are no longer the only kid on the block, the whole Church of Christ, but one Sister Church among others" but that should be: "we are no longer the only kid on the block, the whole Church of Christ, but one twenty-three Sister Churches among others".

Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 12 13

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3