www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Recent interview with Fr. Taft

No sale. Now you're bordering on slander.

Fine, pal. Then refute it.

Given who the historical Gnostics were, and what they actually believed, it is beyond absurd to call those who subscribe the OicwR position Gnostics, and you know it-unless you're an uninformed fool, which I'm sure is not the case.

Well, the Orthodox think they know better than both ECs and LCs.

But seriously, it seems a little like you're criticizing a minority for being a minority.

I'm not saying Stuart and the few other OicwRs believe the same heresies as the Gnostics, only that their approach to church teaching/doctrine is the same. They think their set knows better than either the Catholics or the Orthodox.

Peter J: well, duh. That's the true-church claim. Catholics think they know better than the Orthodox.

I'm not criticizing a minority for being a minority. I'm criticizing it for not making sense, so well-meaning people interested in Byzantine Christianity don't get sucked into it. Be Catholic or be Orthodox. Stuart's well-spoken and assertive so it has to be done.

No sale. I knew you weren't saying that Stuart and other OicwRs believe the same particular heresies. However, the analogy is not appropriate. Gnostics basically sought to syncretize various mystery cults with Christianity (as I suspect you know), and they also held the elitist idea that their knowledge (gnosis) is secret, and available only to a few. Stuart's possession may be indeed be a position of dissent, but there's nothing secretive about it, nor is there anything about his beliefs that are difficult to understand. Calling his position a form of gnosticism is absurd, unless you are going to call every form of dissent gnosticism, in which case, the label would become entirely divorced from its actual meaning.

I consider myself an OicwR, but perhaps unlike many Byzantine OicwR's, I was not cradle Catholic, but translated to the Catholic communion from Oriental Orthodoxy. Perhaps that is why (I mean, since I translated INTO Catholicism, and because Oriental Orthodoxy does not have as much perceived theological differences with Latin Catholicism) I don't fit the mold of brother Young Fogey's understanding of OicwR (and I think his understanding of OicwR is valid as far as his experience is concerned).

I also agree with brother Athanasius L's criticism.

Blessings

Yeah, if if it were a Gnostic church it would claim to be the true church like Catholicism and Orthodoxy do. It's like the Anglican branch theory, belonging really to neither church (here, nominally Catholic but dissenting) and holding itself above both. The notion that such a group would be right and the church (all ancient churches thought they were the true one) wrong was foreign to the church fathers.

I think "belonging really to neither church" is about right.

As a matter of fact, the whole Melkite Church (well, with some exceptions, like retired Bishop of Newton John Elya) would like to be in full communion with both Rome and Orthodoxy. But since neither side was good with that idea, the best choice seems to be to stay in communion with one side rather than not being in communion with either side ... but with "heart belonging to" Orthodoxy.

Here is a video of the UOC-KP Patriarch Filaret being received at St Demetrius Ukrainian Catholic Church in Toronto:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQkoQriHUsE [youtube.com]

Please note that the parish priest, Fr. Tataryn, referred to him as "Your Holiness" and he was later awarded a medal by the Patriarch for his extensive community work. Many Ukrainian Orthodox (EP) came for this and the later banquet because their Metropolitan expressly forbade them from even being in the same neighbourhood as Patriarch Filaret. There are autocephalous and KP Orthodox parishes in Ukraine that share the same church building with Ukr. Greek Catholics as well. This is ecumenism Ukrainian style. As for the "uncanonical" label and "how dare EC's have anything to do with Filaret" stuff - many Ukrainians have come to realize that "uncanonical" really means "not in union with Moscow." There you have it.

Alex

Dear brother Alex,

A clarification please: Are there UO in communion with the EP, but not in communion with the MP, distinct from UOC-KP?

How many apostolic Churches are in Ukraine?

Blessings,
Marduk

I think you are referring to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the US, which is under the jurisdiction of the EP. They are in communion with the MP.

The UOC-KP, I believe was at one time in communion with Constantinople but I think it caused concern between Moscow and the EP and was ceased.

Right, I don't believe there are any UO (or anyone at all afaik) in full communion with Constantinople but not with the MP.

You mean, with apostolicity (Is that a word? ) recognized by Rome? That would be hard to say, because I believe there are some about whom Rome hasn't said one way or the other.

Dear Brother Marduk,

The Ukrainian Orthodox in the Diaspora, such as in Canada, the U.S. and Europe are, for the most part, in union with Constantinople. They don't commemorate the Moscow Patriarchate but they are, de facto, in communion with it as they are in communion with worldwide Orthodoxy.

In Ukraine, there is a small Autocephalous Orthodox Church whose parishes and, as of last week, some UAOC bishops (i.e. Vladyka Ioann Shvets of the Sambirsk-Lviv Eparchy) who have joined the UOC-KP. There is the UOC-MP headed by His Beatitude, Vladyka Vladimir (Sabodan) which is recognized as canonical within world Orthodoxy and by Rome.

The UOC-KP is gaining in strength annually. When the Kyivan Patriarch visited Canada, some EP parishes, such as in Winnipeg, united with him, thereby breaking communion with the EP. There are Ukrainian Orthodox with the EP who wonder why they are not in communion with the Kyivan Patriarchate and these are the ones who came out to see him at our Ukrainian Catholic parish . . .

Perhaps if Ukrainians, en masse, united under the Kyivan Patriarch, even if it isn't recognized as uncanonical, they would be a force to be reckoned with. This would force the EP to recognize it eventually. And if the EP would do that, the united Particular Ukrainian Orthodox would embrace him as their own (and wouldn't ever let go of him).

All this is dreaming on my part . . . must have something to do with my health condition . . .

Alex