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Dear Sergey,

Just one more question - when you wrote that one should not rely on anything "Alex Roman wrote" - what was your meaning?

Was it because I'm not pro-Russian that I'm not trustworthy? biggrin

I was deeply offended by that.

Alex

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
In English it's 'the Ukraine', and I'm pro-Russian without apology, so that meaning of 'the Ukraine' is part of what I mean, but of course as an American looking at how a Christian, nationalist Russia (yes, a badass gangster state I wouldn't necessarily want to live in) can help conservative American values (a check against liberal American and liberal European power and political correctness).

I think in the older cases of national churches declaring independence, it was like Bulgaria in the 1800s. World Orthodoxy didn't go out of communion with them.

Regarding Russian-speaking Ukrainians (namely, most Ukrainians) being nationalists, that could well be. Like how Dutch-speaking Flanders in Belgium doesn’t want to be part of the Netherlands. Several countries speaking the same language isn’t unusual historically in Europe.

Russian: Русская Православная Церковь.
Ukrainian: Російська Православна Церква.

As you can see, like Spanish and Portuguese, very mutually intelligible. With my smattering of Russian I've talked to Ukrainian speakers.


Like most Rusyn Americans of my era,who remain either in the BCC or ACROD, I was brought up with the emphatic cultural teaching that we were most emphatically NOT Russians,referred to in a derogatory fashion as "katzaps" and while we were not Ukrainian, our language, religious, musical, dance and folk lore were far closer to that of Ukraine than that of the Muscovites. We believed that our people were betrayed by the Russian Orthodox in the early 20th century in America when they were welcomed unto Orthodoxy by the Tsarist regime not with love and affection but with the same imperialist condescension which the Rusyn Greek Catholics faced from the American Roman hierarchy.

What you wrote is simply more of the same Russian chauvinist pablum which infected so many immigrants here in the last century.

As to language I shall relate a Pennsylvania "Russian" story from world war two. John and George left their small Northeast Pennsylvania hamlet to join the army. They were told they were good "Ruskyj" boys by their Baba all their young lives. They had a going away party at the Russian Club and they were fluent in "ponashemu", the language spoken by most at their Church, it didn't matter if it was Greek Catholic or Orthodox. They served with Patton's Army and were part of the US Army group which met up with the Red Army at the Elbe.

When they came home Baba, their priest and all of the neighbors wanted to know about the Russian soldiers they met.

John looked at George and said, "Those Russians were the dumbest SOB's we ever met. We didn't understand more than a word or two of what they said and whenever we tried to talk to them they would laugh until their sides split."

Yes, there are many Russians in Ukraine, especially the closer you get to Great Russia. But to assert that they are nothing more than "little Russians" is to parrot the discredited panslavism of the past.

Your argument is as shallow as if a German came to Ontario and argued that Canadians were really the same as Americans because of superficial cultural, historical and linguistic similarities.

Good luck with that.




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Dear DMD,

Thank you for your enriching post which moved me deeply.

Coming to know my brother Rusyns has been an eye-opening experience for me.

Most recently, a legislator I knew very well and who was a Rusyn (he used to recit Rusyn poetry in the legislative cafeteria as we waited in line . . .), reposed in the Lord suddenly (Mr. Peter Kormos who at the time was a municipal councillor, having resigned his seat at the provincial legislature).

He loved his Rusyn heritage, but his language was, well, let me say that it was a purer "Ukrainian" than the dialect I originally learned at home. I gave him an icon of Bl. Theodore Romzha which he hung in his office and later took with him.

Your post reminded me of him just now and I'm somewhat in tears remembering him. He once stood in the legislature and told my then boss that he was "jealous" that my boss had me rather than he himself grin

Kormos was a great public servant who always defended the underdog. He is missed by many.

My salutations to you, sir.

Alex

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And please forgive my spelling errors - my right eye is failing me and I don't know how to edit a post.

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By pointing out Russian power and good points I'm not trying to put down related Slavic groups.

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Very interesting post DMD.
I'm still stumped as to why ACRC refers to itself as
Carpatho-Russian rather than Carpatho-Rusyn.

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My father said that back then the Rusyn reawakening movement was yet to flourish, that translating "Karpatska-Rus" and "Rusynyj" into English was often wrong, people knew in Rusyn and Ukrainian the differences between "rossia", "Rusyn" etc... but screwed it up in English and sadly, some equated Rusyn with Greek Catholicism - a fallacy still perpetuated by some Russian minded folks.

Look, I have much admiration for and appreciate common religious and cultural bonds with the Russian people. Their churches, their music etc... always stirs my heart. I am not "anti" Russian so much as I am proud of my heritage, and more so of the great country my grandparents embraced!

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I was going to pm Orthodox Catholic but he is over his limit.

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Actually, my PM privileges are disabled as I've not been here for a long time.

You could send me a message through the "Ukrainian Orthodoxy" website, if you like.

Alex

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Again, DMD, I'm the last person to put down Rusyns. (And not just because this is a Rusyn-based board.) Met Rusyn-Americans over 20 years ago, dated a Rusyn-American, and even got to talk to that rarity in America, a Rusyn immigrant, shortly before she passed away. (Rusyn immigration mostly ended with World War I and 1920s immigration restrictions. So in America Rusyns are very American.)

Most Rusyns, like most Galician Ukrainians, are Greek Catholics, but noticing that is not necessarily a putdown. Certainly not from me.

I understand reasons what became ACROD went under Constantinople were they didn't want the Metropolia russifying them as it did its convert Rusyn majority earlier (well known here: about 60% of American Russian Orthodox aren't Russian), C'ople was understandably seen as the Orthodox equivalent of the Pope, and Moscow by then was Soviet thus untrustworthy.

Pan-Slavism and Russian missionizing among Greek Catholic immigrants in America 100 years ago were imperial Russian propaganda. But to be fair, back then it was often mutual. Among Rusyn intelligentsia, identifying with Russia and Orthodoxy, the level varying by person, were far commoner than now. There were a very few 19th-century Greek Catholic churchmen who were fine byzantinizers in the letter and spirit of what Rome wants, and of this board, and were hounded out of Greek Catholicism for it, got fed up and went to the Russian Orthodox, forced to do what their latinizing church enemies had long accused them of, being disloyal. The Soviets inadvertently ended all that by invading and persecuting Rusyns and other closely related Slavic groups.

ACROD's story is of people kicked out of the Catholic Church for no good reason: they weren't heretics or liberals, they just wanted to keep the rules they lived under in the old country, and they knew the local Roman Riters didn't want them so they owned their church property as protection. The Roman Riters responsible, just like John Ireland, will have a deservedly rough Judgement Day. It's obvious looking at ACROD historically (monsignori, First Communions, etc.) that they didn't want to leave; the positions against the Pope, etc., are ex post facto rationalizations.

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'Ani do Rimu, ani do Moskvi' as your founder said.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
And please forgive my spelling errors - my right eye is failing me and I don't know how to edit a post.

The edit feature is gone for the time being, but possibly it will return at some point. I hope so.

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To traditional American Catholics, a lot of the charm of Northeastern and Midwestern po-nashomu Orthodox, both Metropolia and ACROD, is they are so similar to traditional American Catholics. But the OCA ones sing the same music as Moscow/ROCOR and likely call themselves Russian; an exception: I've been to a parish that kept a lot of its prostopinije.

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For the newbs: Metropolia = OCA.

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Quote
There were a very few 19th-century Greek Catholic churchmen who were fine byzantinizers in the letter and spirit of what Rome wants, and of this board, and were hounded out of Greek Catholicism for it, got fed up and went to the Russian Orthodox, forced to do what their latinizing church enemies had long accused them of, being disloyal.


Joseph Siemaszko for example.

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