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Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #396659 07/12/13 08:22 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Alex,

I would implore you to take a step back. The problem isn't you it is Isa. The Gotcha game is what he does. He isn't here to dialogue. He is here to do bad mouth Catholics, period.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Tomassus] #396662 07/12/13 11:29 AM
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This is stupid. Yet typical for a forum. Is dissent not allowed? Other posters can engage in personal attacks,such as Stuart, yet if someone else does it, i.e. Latin, Orthodox, Ruthinian, you guys get mad.

I you want to make the claims that this forum is this or that; why are there so many sections? Have the moderators move discussions to another section, not engage in their own personal attacks.

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Tomassus] #396665 07/12/13 08:00 PM
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Chadrook,

Dissent is allowed. Anyone reading the posts on the various threads will see that.

What is not allowed is disrespect. If one is to discuss the theology of a Church they do not belong to they may do so, and they obviously do this regularly. A Catholic might say that he rejects Orthodox teaching on Topic A. An Orthodox might say that he rejects Catholic teaching on Topic B. What one may not do is to say that the theology of someone else's Church is stupid, etc.

I remind all posters that when they twist facts, are disrespectful of other posters, or in other ways exhibit a lack of Christian brotherhood they make fools of themselves. If you need to do such things the argument you are presenting will never win.

Regarding Weigel's article (the one under discussion in this thread), I find much in it that is accurate.

Quote
There is a deep historical pessimism in Ukraine, born of both a colonial past (which taught Ukrainians that they were an inferior subspecies of the eastern Slavs) and a totalitarian past (in which millions of Ukrainians were deliberately starved to death as a matter of Soviet state policy in what seems to be the forgotten horror among the 20th-century genocides).

I think, however, the issue is far deeper than that, goes back much further, and has a lot to do why even today Greek Catholics consider themselves to be second class (even in America). But that is a separate discussion that we've had before.

The link that DMD provided to comments by Bishop Demetrios provides (IMHO) a good filter in which one can read Weigel. George Weigel is obviously a very good man with the best of intentions. But he has no understanding of the Christian East. If he did he would follow the example of Pope John Paul the Great in treating Orthodoxy as if the "only thing needed for communion is communion".

John

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Administrator] #396666 07/12/13 08:09 PM
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DMD Offline
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Thank you, John. As I clarified my original comments, and you point out, much of what Weigel observes is true. Just to reiterate, my beef with Weigel has nothing to do with Ukraine or even Greek Catholicism, but rather with Weigel's almost contemptuous rejection over the years of the type of ongoing dialogue between us as evidenced by the North American Consultation and the spirit of the Orientale Lumen held annually. I am truly sorry how things went off track.


Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Tomassus] #396668 07/12/13 08:44 PM
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Our Orthodox brothers and sisters deserve great respect. They are not some wild deviation of Protestantism. Despite their lack of "centrality," they have maintained the Faith. That is the spirit at work. I love our Pope, but it often seems as if the Vatican's hyper-obsession with global control is causing it a spiritual meltdown. Look at the collapse of the Faith in Ireland. Did centrality prevent that?

The whole Church must find unity with one another. If you treat a seasoned veteran like a rookie, you will have that person's ire, or atleast their polite disregard.

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Tomassus] #396669 07/12/13 08:44 PM
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*by spirit, meaning Holy Spirit, Paraclete.

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Administrator] #396691 07/13/13 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Administrator

I think, however, the issue is far deeper than that, goes back much further, and has a lot to do why even today Greek Catholics consider themselves to be second class (even in America). But that is a separate discussion that we've had before.

John


REALLY?

I have yet to meet ANYBODY on both sides of the Atlantic belonging to Ukrainian Catholic Church to consider themselves a second class.
I have never met somebody like this neither during the Soviet era ( actually those who were devout underground Ukrainian Catholics considered themselves a better caste than ordinary soviet citizens as did citizens of the Baltic states) nor afterwards in Ukraine and I have never met anybody feeling "second class" here in the USA, but in the latter regard I do speak about fourth wave of immigration only - I can't tell about the grievances of the previous ones since we do differ a lot.
Neither had I encounter any kind of the "second class" approach from Americans.
Russians are the other matter, but the ones which ever attempted to were quickly put in their place so they never tried again.
Russians in Lviv usually knew their place even during soviet era and most certainly know it now so there is not even a hint of any division for "first class" or "second class" whatsoever.


Where does this ridiculous assumption come from?!?

Please, do not consider the question confrontational - I am absolutely sincerely AMAZED on this assumption which is stated as a clear belief.

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: Vox Populi] #396743 07/15/13 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi

Russians in Lviv usually knew their place even during soviet era and most certainly know it now so there is not even a hint of any division for "first class" or "second class" whatsoever.

Oh? A lot of Russians in Lviv, then or now?

Did the Poles "know their place" in Lwów? How about in Lemberg?

I know that the Orthodox were told their place in Lemberg and Lwów. How about in L'viv?

Re: Ukraine's future depends on Greek (Byzantine) Catholic Church [Re: IAlmisry] #396770 07/15/13 02:58 PM
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Vox Populi Offline
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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Vox Populi

Russians in Lviv usually knew their place even during soviet era and most certainly know it now so there is not even a hint of any division for "first class" or "second class" whatsoever.

Oh? A lot of Russians in Lviv, then or now?

Did the Poles "know their place" in Lwów? How about in Lemberg?

I know that the Orthodox were told their place in Lemberg and Lwów. How about in L'viv?


You have nothing to do with Ukrainian matters, so to put it politely - mind your own problems smile

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