www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Divisions in the Orthodox Church are holding up ecumenical dialog

These videos are absolutely hilarious.

These catholics have become "protestant" without knowing it. Remarkable.

Oh.. and here's what happening when they are not dancing:



--> Do you think you've lost your Church? I mean, what is going on?

Oh.. if you like, go to 0:40 in the video, you'll see a new dancing style.

This is factually incorrect. As was long the custom in the Patriarchate of Antioch, Cyril Tanas was selected by the clergy and laity of his diocese in Damascus, rather than by the synod of bishops. Up through the early 20th century, there's a pretty lively intra-Catholic polemic in French about the canonicity of his patriarchate prior to Rome's recognition of it in 1744-- even the Catholic missionaries in Aleppo went along with the people and clergy of the city in backing Sylvester against him.

Moreover, of the bishops on the Holy Synod of Antioch at that time, at most only two ruling bishops and four auxiliaries supported Tanas. There is a great deal of controversy (again, amongst Catholic historians) as to who even consecrated Cyril-- the most likely account states that only two auxiliary bishops (those of Saidnaya and Caesarea Philippi) were present at the consecration...

In any case, the Melkite Synod of Bishops have already agreed that, in the event communion is restored, its bishops will step aside in favor of the Antiochian Orthodox bishop whenever jurisdictions overlap. That's not likely to be a problem here in the U.S.--the existing territories can just be redefined to eliminate any overlap, thereby creating a new Eparchy.

Stuart's comment reflects what I have been told about any possible restoration of communion between the Melkite Church and the Antiochian Orthodox.

Truly sad! This kind of "liturgy" is the end result of having an all-powerful bishop who can with a single signature wipe out hundreds of years of liturgical history and promulgate a shiny new modern liturgy composed by a committee.

I posted the following comment at the Byztex blog:

This Vatican Insider article is a rather vapid opinion piece. That said, another approach to the present impasse in ecumenical relations could focus on Roman Catholic doctrinal developments since the schism, and - at least from an Orthodox perspective - the title of that proposed article could be:

"Roman Catholic Doctrinal Innovations are holding up Ecumenical Dialogue"

The video posted by Thanos888 . . .



. . . made me think of this . . .

I am indeed saddened by the lack of reverence in the sanctuaries of these Roman Catholic parishes, but they seem no worse than the video on this website of the "dance" in St John Chrysostom sanctuary (the parish of Andy Warhol). It is indeed sad that those churches who professthe "real Presence" of Christ in the Tabernacle would resort to permitting such outrages in Church; they are suited more to a hall or a stage. I realize the Latin Church has a lot to work on, especially in its idea of reverence in the Church. I am even more saddened by the fact that the many in the Roman Catholic Church distrust the Byzantines (because they don't understand the mystery in the Church - my sister calls it "creepy" and the Orthodox can't seem to get it together even with each other, the Byzantines seem to be left in limbo. I think there is room enough for everyone without us throwing stones at "Uniates", Latins and Orthodox. Each one of the churches insists it is correct and all are supposed to be part of the Mystical Body of Christ and we should act like it. I am no longer near a Byzantine Church but I do attend one when I can (I am still Roman Rite) but our pastor would never permit some of the shenanigans as I have seen in some of the videos mentioned. I cannot understand how a Bishop would permit such behavior but then again each Bishop probably has a different feeling about what is appropriate in the Sanctuary (just as I refuse to take Communion in the Hand in the Roman Church - thank God it's not an option in the Byzantine tradition). Slava Isuza Christu.

So true. I happened to attend this ceremony. Its a Catholic Charismatic rite.

I never thought I'd see the day when Catholics were gayly dancing around the altar of the Blessed Notre Dame Cathedral. Remarkable.

And yes, the Bishops were aware. I know, for a fact, that the Archbishop of Versaille isn't really for this. He allows it, but there are so many Bishops who are for it and the youth have embraced this craze that he's stuck between a rock and a hardplace.

The Catholic Church is truly endangered.

It has focused more on getting others to consider themselves "Catholic" then it has in nurturing true faith and fellowship in its faithful. Its like they are more interested in the "Brand" or "Label" than the contents or quality of the product.

This has a cost.

Many Catholics are denying their baptism. They've gone to great lengths to ensure that the Church wipes them off the registry. The RC baptises anyone nowadays without any thought. I've seen them marry an atheist and a Catholic together without any issue even.

When you talk about unity with the orthodox, as you can see, we are in no rush. We believe in Quality - not Quantity.

Thanos,

While you cite the fringe of luni Catholics, you fail to explain why faithful Eastern Catholics would want to "integrate back" into their Mother Churches when shenanigans like this are "approved", with no one able or willing to reign them in, talk about dancing:

http://www.icergua.org/latam/noticias/13/03.html#9
http://www.icergua.org/latam/english/12-news/08-agosto.html






http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15199.0.html

The author of the Byztex blog has it right in his commentary on the Vatican Insider article, because - as he notes - the magazine author does not understand the conciliar nature of Orthodox ecclesiology, which seeks consensus rather than fiat commands from some type of top down bureaucracy. Click the link below to read the Byztex blogger's comments on the article, I found them quite insightful:

Byztex Blog [byztex.blogspot.com]

They are not the "fringe" of Catholic parishes. I live in the diocese of Oakland and strange liturgies are common place both here and in San Francisco (and also in San Jose, Salinas, Monterey, Marin County, Benecia, Newman, Stockton, and Sacramento).

Postscript: I have also personally been to bizarre Roman Catholic liturgies in Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Texas, and Nevada.

I also do not think that it is a mere coincidence that when you do find strange Orthodox liturgies they by-and-large come from small newly founded Churches that exist within societies that are predominantly Roman Catholic or Protestant. Just another reason why the Orthodox should wait for the Roman Church to clean up its own liturgical house before seriously considering any kind of restoration of communion.

Postscript: What I said above I said as an Eastern Catholic, who is concerned about the present state of the Roman Catholic Church, and the effect it could have upon the Eastern Catholic Churches. Rome ignores Eastern Catholics, and has for centuries, but - for whatever reason - the Roman Curia does listen (at least sometimes) to the Orthodox, and it is my hope that Orthodox pressure could be helpful in cleaning up the liturgical anarchy in the Latin Church. It may be a slim hope, but it is my hope nonetheless. The Orthodox need to be tough with Rome in any dialogue.

By the way, I posted less than half of the weird liturgical videos that I have found on Youtube, but I am more than willing to post the rest if people are interested in seeing what is going on. The time to pretend that all is well liturgically in the Roman Church is long gone.

What makes you think that most of the USA isn't the luni fringe? Or some random wonky diocese in the Netherlands or Germany, or in South America? This is about a church with over 1billion people from one side of the planet to the other, not the Antiochian EO bishop representing Antioch, claiming 100K converts one day, 200K the following, and 500K the next; making bishops out of pentecostal preachers, after having met him just the week earlier, etc. Meanwhile the EP repudiates the entire idea, but won't do anything about the problem. Why should Eastern Catholics trust that this dysfunction isn't the norm?

On OO side of things, Rene Vilette's consecration to the episcopate is one that most will say was a mistake without hesitation. Why does the pattern continue over and over, do they not learn or is there some other motivation we are not aware of?