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Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398027
08/13/13 02:07 PM
08/13/13 02:07 PM
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It's not a matter of Maronites being excuse me, "very latinized." Their liturgical traditions are quite pure and in many cases were similar to the Latin Rite practices from the very beginning.


Someone's been drinking the cool aid.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Franciscum] #398028
08/13/13 02:08 PM
08/13/13 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Franciscum
Originally Posted by DMD
Latinized stuff like this is great fodder for the anti-ecumenical among the Orthodox when they ask us how can we really trust the Romans. For those who want to worship like that I have some solid advice - just join the RCC and allow the sui juris Churches the space and respect that they were supposed to receive following Vatican 2. Otherwise there will never be any reunion.


Is it even that widespread or is it simply something people like to continue to carp about? I don't know of too many people in the Catholic Church pushing to implement Western practices into the East.

I know a GREAT MANY that carp about latinizations even when none exist in their own places of worship. Some seem to take an almost perverse delight in continuing to talk about them.


Wow, I am going to stand back, get some popcorn and watch this one.

Most of us old enough to remember Bishop Nicholas Elko of the BCC and Bishop John Martin (his one time protege) who became ACROD's Bishop following "L'affaire Elko" would answer "fired" if this is a multiple choice whether we are BCC or Orthodox. While Bishop Elko was indeed "transferred", the perception of that reality was that it was done one step ahead of yet another rebellion - this time by the clergy.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Franciscum] #398045
08/13/13 07:40 PM
08/13/13 07:40 PM
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Dear Franciscum,

How do you know that? I grew up in a very Latinized environment.

I'm still Latinized as my very Eastern Greek-Catholic colleagues here will remind me from time to time. So what? I like being Latinized smile

But there are those who don't and who work to get rid of Latinizations.

I would rather re-state what you said to say that there are those who (like me) are so attached to their Latinizations that they see them as integral parts of their Eastern Catholic identity (which they are not, but we choose to ignore that).

But I don't care what people think of me as being an East-West "hybrid."

Alex

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Franciscum] #398046
08/13/13 07:41 PM
08/13/13 07:41 PM
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I know people in EC religious orders who promote Western practices in the East . . .

Alex

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Franciscum] #398047
08/13/13 07:43 PM
08/13/13 07:43 PM
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Dear Franciscum,

Please be temperate in your language when addressing a Priest.

Rev. Fr. Archpriest Straut is none of the things you suggest.

As a rule, no EC or EO cleric should celebrate the Divine Liturgy facing the people.

I support Rev. Fr. Archpriest in his statement and so please feel free to apply the same invective to me, Latinized though I am.

Alex

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398079
08/14/13 02:04 PM
08/14/13 02:04 PM
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I know people in EC religious orders who promote Western practices in the East . . .

Yeah, and I'm thinking we need to do something about that. Like promote our own authentic form of monasticism in place of Eastern "rites" of Western orders.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398080
08/14/13 02:05 PM
08/14/13 02:05 PM
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It seems like many that carp the loudest about "Latinizations" have no idea what the actual eastern practices were/are.


Does he really want to go there? Because I'm game if he is.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: StuartK] #398081
08/14/13 02:19 PM
08/14/13 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
It seems like many that carp the loudest about "Latinizations" have no idea what the actual eastern practices were/are.


Does he really want to go there? Because I'm game if he is.


Butter for your popcorn, anyone?

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: StuartK] #398084
08/14/13 02:56 PM
08/14/13 02:56 PM
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Dear Royal Stuart,

And how is it that Jesuits like Fr. Taft know so much more about the East than, well, Easterners do, for the most part?

But you are more than correct - we need to promote authentic Eastern monasticism. And we need to begin by understanding what that is.

Are you not being engaged as a lecturer/teacher for our parishes and eparchial events?

If you are not, we can begin by asking our bishops and priests why people like you, the Administrator, Todd and others here aren't being utilized for the "new easternization" of the EC Churches?

Alex

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398086
08/14/13 06:08 PM
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The same way one gets into Carnegie Hall--practice, practice, practice.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398087
08/14/13 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Royal Stuart,

And how is it that Jesuits like Fr. Taft know so much more about the East than, well, Easterners do, for the most part?

But you are more than correct - we need to promote authentic Eastern monasticism. And we need to begin by understanding what that is.

Are you not being engaged as a lecturer/teacher for our parishes and eparchial events?

If you are not, we can begin by asking our bishops and priests why people like you, the Administrator, Todd and others here aren't being utilized for the "new easternization" of the EC Churches?

Alex


Begging the question, do most EC Bishops truly embrace "New easternization" or do they fear it? It seems to me, from my limited (and biased) point of view, that many EC clergy are on board, but the leadership, i.e.the hierarchy, often seems to be left waiting on the station's platform.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398090
08/14/13 07:36 PM
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I can name three or four here who are fully on board. That's out of what? fourteen or fifteen? Abroad, I would say the Melkites and a plurality of the Ukrainians are committed, and the further west you go, the more ambivalent bishops become. But the real opposition, interestingly, lies with the smaller, non-Byzantine Catholic Churches, including the Maronites, the Chaldeans, the Syrians, and the Syro-Malabarese, who are all very thoroughly latinized.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: DMD] #398092
08/14/13 07:50 PM
08/14/13 07:50 PM
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It's all about who appoints the hierarchs . . . and why . . .

It is also the same issue with respect to who appointed Orthodox bishops under Poland in the 16th century.

Ultimately, those same bishops signed the Union of Brest.

Alex

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: StuartK] #398130
08/15/13 06:55 PM
08/15/13 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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I know people in EC religious orders who promote Western practices in the East . . .

Yeah, and I'm thinking we need to do something about that. Like promote our own authentic form of monasticism in place of Eastern "rites" of Western orders.


I wonder what Archimandrite Taft would say?

Isn't it interesting to see that he, considered a leading expert by both Catholics and Orthodox in almost all things Eastern, was originally Roman-rite and is an "Eastern-rite Jesuit" of the largest Western religious order in the Church?

Would he ever consider leaving the Jesuits and enter a monastic community, like Holy Resurrection Monastery?

Has anyone ever asked him about that? I certainly would love to know how he would answer.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #398132
08/15/13 07:24 PM
08/15/13 07:24 PM
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Dear Griego Amigo,

Just saw a movie about a Basilian priest-teacher who trained students in racing.

He himself could not engage in competitive racing, however. As he told the principal, "When I got to seminary, I was told, 'Basilians don't run . . .' I should have become a Jesuit . . ."

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 08/15/13 07:25 PM.
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