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Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398575 08/29/13 10:51 AM
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You're great at keeping things in perspective Alex! grin

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398576 08/29/13 10:53 AM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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I learned that from our benevolent Administrator! smile

Cheers, Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398604 08/29/13 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Well, today we glorified the Most Holy Theotokos, taken body and soul into Heaven.

Her gender is quite clearly affirmed in all the liturgical services. Remember, she is in Heaven with BOTH her body and her soul.

So that PROVES that gender does persist even in heaven.
NO, it does not.It is pure speculation
What our Lord said cannot be used on behalf of your argument.
Of course it can. It is THE MOST IMPORTANT of all arguments smile
As for your catechists . . . they are not infallible and my catechists would often give opinions on things that were even at variance with church teaching - as I later found out.
They are not. neither are you. Or Pope if he is not speaking ex cathedra. Which he was not.

Last edited by Vox Populi; 08/29/13 05:59 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398605 08/29/13 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
So that's one for me and none for you, so far! smile smile

Alex


Nope. It is vice verse one for me and none for you biggrin

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: StuartK] #398607 08/29/13 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Actual, the persistence of sexual differentiation in the Resurrection can be used as proof that the Eastern theology of marriage is correct, and that the sacramental bond of marriage perdures beyond death, for we shall remain male and female after we are raised up and reborn in glorified (but material) bodies. Sex, however, shall transcend mere carnality.


There is no persistence in gender differentiation upon Resurrection.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398608 08/29/13 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by desertman

It's actually my fault. If you go to page 5 of this thread you'll see where it starts getting bizarre.
And now it's all just become silly. Arguing for the sake of winning the argument. When it gets to that point I usually realize the real reason I'm still participating is pride and wanting to prove I'm right. This is the perpetual temptation of discussion forums. smile


So far nobody has delivered ANY arguments to prove their assertion about persistence of gender differentiation after Resurrection, except opinion of John Paul II ( which did not have any references to anything as well).

I am genuinely interested in real arguments - with reference to the fathers or documents of the Church.

So far it was opinion against opinion, with mine substantiated with Scriptural words of Jesus Christ and articles of Catechism.

You guys seem to differ in opinion, but instead of submitting something to approve your position you just get frustrated. Why?

I hope it is not to illustrate the proverb If Jupiter is frustrated... wink

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398609 08/29/13 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Originally Posted by desertman

It's actually my fault. If you go to page 5 of this thread you'll see where it starts getting bizarre.
And now it's all just become silly. Arguing for the sake of winning the argument. When it gets to that point I usually realize the real reason I'm still participating is pride and wanting to prove I'm right. This is the perpetual temptation of discussion forums. smile


So far nobody has delivered ANY arguments to prove their assertion about persistence of gender differentiation after Resurrection, except opinion of John Paul II ( which did not have any references to anything as well).

I am genuinely interested in real arguments - with reference to the fathers or documents of the Church.

So far it was opinion against opinion, with mine substantiated with Scriptural words of Jesus Christ and articles of Catechism.

You guys seem to differ in opinion, but instead of submitting something to approve your position you just get frustrated. Why?

I hope it is not to illustrate the proverb If Jupiter is frustrated... wink


Are you being serious? You dismiss the pope's thoughts on the matter, but you haven't provided a single source for your opinion other than your own private interpretation of a few scripture passages! Who's speculating again?

We haven't provided ANY arguments? Really?!



Last edited by desertman; 08/29/13 06:18 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398612 08/29/13 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
[ I did encounter this belief on the web that our gender is going to be with us forever, however, I was raised on belief that we won't have any gender since there won't be any need for it.


Originally Posted by Vox Populi
...I have always thought this way and always will


What is the use of debating with you after making statements like these? You are obviously not open to even the slightest possibility you might be wrong.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398613 08/29/13 06:33 PM
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Dear desertman,

Voxy feels that liturgical references et alia are no proof of anything . . . smile

And unless the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra" - well, that doesn't cut it either.

But he has given evidence of his own position, remember? His catechists . . . They trump all!

I guess we will just to try and be gracious in defeat . . .

Sniff . . .

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398614 08/29/13 06:39 PM
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Okay, VoxP please forgive me for the tone in those last posts. It's been a bad day and the Lord is not pleased with me right now.
I already said let's just agree to disagree and so once again I'll leave it at that.
Peace be with you... smile

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398615 08/29/13 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear desertman,

Voxy feels that liturgical references et alia are no proof of anything . . . smile

And unless the Pope is speaking "ex cathedra" - well, that doesn't cut it either.

But he has given evidence of his own position, remember? His catechists . . . They trump all!

I guess we will just to try and be gracious in defeat . . .

Sniff . . .

Alex


That's okay, I surrender!

Or NOT! (See below)

Last edited by desertman; 08/29/13 07:19 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398618 08/29/13 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi

I am genuinely interested in real arguments - with reference to the fathers or documents of the Church.

Ok, I just can't help myself. You want Church Fathers, you got em! smile :
Quote

St. Augustine
The City of God (Book XXII) Chapter 17 - Whether the Bodies of Women Shall Retain Their Own Sex in the Resurrection.

From those bodies, then, vice shall be withdrawn, while nature shall be preserved. And the sex of woman is not a vice, but nature. It shall then indeed be superior to carnal intercourse and child-bearing; nevertheless the female members shall remain adapted not to the old uses, but to a new beauty, which, so far from provoking lust, now extinct, shall excite praise to the wisdom and clemency of God, who both made what was not and delivered from corruption what He made. For at the beginning of the human race the woman was made of a rib taken from the side of the man while he slept; for it seemed fit that even then Christ and His Church should be foreshadowed in this event. For that sleep of the man was the death of Christ, whose side, as He hung lifeless upon the cross, was pierced with a spear, and there flowed from it blood and water, and these we know to be the sacraments by which the Church is "built up." For Scripture used this very word, not saying "He formed" or "framed," but "built her up into a woman;" Genesis 2:22 whence also the apostle speaks of the edification of the body of Christ, Ephesians 4:12 which is the Church. The woman, therefore, is a creature of God even as the man; but by her creation from man unity is commended; and the manner of her creation prefigured, as has been said, Christ and the Church. He, then, who created both sexes will restore both. Jesus Himself also, when asked by the Sadducees, who denied the resurrection, which of the seven brothers should have to wife the woman whom all in succession had taken to raise up seed to their brother, as the law enjoined, says, "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." Matthew 22:29 And though it was a fit opportunity for His saying, She about whom you make inquiries shall herself be a man, and not a woman, He said nothing of the kind; but "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30 They shall be equal to the angels in immortality and happiness, not in flesh, nor in resurrection, which the angels did not need, because they could not die. The Lord then denied that there would be in the resurrection, not women, but marriages; and He uttered this denial in circumstances in which the question mooted would have been more easily and speedily solved by denying that the female sex would exist, if this had in truth been foreknown by Him. But, indeed, He even affirmed that the sex should exist by saying, "They shall not be given in marriage," which can only apply to females; "Neither shall they marry," which applies to males. There shall therefore be those who are in this world accustomed to marry and be given in marriage, only they shall there make no such marriages.


Of course something tells me you'll still claim this is opinion and that you'll stick with your catechist!
(Just messing with ya!) wink
This is all in good fun Vox P.!

Last edited by desertman; 08/29/13 07:31 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398620 08/29/13 07:46 PM
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One last thought Vox. Think about the fact that being male and female is not just about body parts or procreation. There is a difference physically, spiritually, emotionally between men and women and those differences are part of what make God's creation beautiful. The way which men and women relate to one another - and not just sexually - is beautiful. The dynamics between the sexes is beautiful. It's not just about functionality or procreation. It's about beauty and wonder.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: desertman] #398621 08/29/13 08:18 PM
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Dear desertman,

But that was just one Father . . . and he wasn't ever a pope either . . . smile

Perhaps we should move on to other topics? smile

Have a great weekend.

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398623 08/29/13 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear desertman,

But that was just one Father . . . and he wasn't ever a pope either . . . smile

Perhaps we should move on to other topics? smile

Have a great weekend.

Alex


I know, you're right Alex. Pride is the chief demon I'm battling lately and it's definitely shown here.
I'm not in a good place spiritually lately at all. Might be time to take a break from byzcath for a while and maybe even get off the net entirely and focus on other stuff.
Pray for me everyone!

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