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Latinisation? #363575 04/25/11 05:31 AM
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Otsheylnik Offline OP
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St Andrew's Russian Catholic Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z66IGcZLPI

In particular, what is the deal with the fans and the processional cross - I have never seen them used at this or any point of the service in ROCOR churches or the Russian Catholic church, with the exception of the hierarchical liturgy (which this isn't) and even then just the fans.


Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363576 04/25/11 07:32 AM
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ukrainiancatholic Offline
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I cannot speak to any Russian practice, Orthodox or Catholic, but my experience is that cross and fans are normally stationary behind the Altar, and only removed for processions on Feasts days. In other places, I have seen that fans brought out for the time of the Gospel reading. Most places, they just stay behind the Altar the whole time, from what I have seen.

I do not consider the processional fans or cross to be a Latinization. The only Latinization I see if that God-forsaken chair shown in the clip. Chairs are a distant cousin of the pew, which is known by all as a Protestant heresy, so the chair, being basically a mini, one-person pew, is slightly heretical at worst, but a Latinization at best. grin

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363581 04/25/11 12:46 PM
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Otsheylnik Offline OP
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We have a few chairs in my ROCOR church, as well as benches in the side of the church and the kliros. They are not at all a latinisation, but rather a concession to the elderly and infirm. I think people on here are also in general a bit fanatical about pews as latinisations, since the Antiochians and Greeks do not seem to have become ROman and they have been using them for more than a century. I've even seen an Old believer church (priestless) with pews, fair enough when most people are old, your services are long and your church is almost extinct.

I don't know, the processional cross in particular seems ROman because it is singly carried, at what would have been the front of a procession, seems to be a bit of liturgical paraphenalia that would appeal to a latin mindset. I also don't like the English (the idea of a Russian Church with no Slavonic seems odd to me), but that's another issue entirely.

Whenever we (ROCOR) bear such things as the cross in processions (rarely), they are always borne in pairs anyway, so it would be accompanied by a banner etc. THe single cross at the head of the procession seems Roman..we seem to do things in pairs in the RUssian use mostly.

Last edited by Otsheylnik; 04/25/11 12:48 PM.
Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363582 04/25/11 12:50 PM
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I have seen the processional cross and fans moved around a lot in videos of the Patriarchal liturgies at Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow, but admittedly those liturgies are probably rather exceptional.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363584 04/25/11 01:41 PM
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Otsheylnik Offline OP
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Fans are a normal part of the hierarchical liturgy (archiereiskaya sluzhba), I was a bit more curious about this one because we don't use either at a liturgy without a bishop (no bishop in the video). I'll have to see how they set up the cross in Moscow though, I know their usage differs a bit from ROCOR usage which is descended from St Petersburg use.


Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363585 04/25/11 02:59 PM
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ukrainiancatholic Offline
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I was joking about the chairs/pews.... Every ROCOR church I have been to has benches or chairs. I was merely making a parody of people who make chairs/pews an issue.

I saw fans in use as recent as yesterday at the Easter DL when they were used in procession and during the Gospel with no bishop present.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363586 04/25/11 03:20 PM
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A good while back, Father Elias (one of the moderators on this forum) stated (in Ripidia)

Quote
Ripidia may be carried at the great entrance, held at the proclamation of the gospel and even at other times.

Their use varies in the Byzantine Churches from Athos (not at all) to America (every Liturgy).


Christ is risen!

Jeff Mierzejewski

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363624 04/26/11 01:01 AM
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Steve Petach Offline
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It would be hard for the Russian Catholic Church in America to have a true hierarchical Divine Liturgy with their own Bishop since the parishes are under local Latin Archdiocesan authority.

There was a thread on Byzcath.org regarding this issue several years ago:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/18886/2



Re: Latinisation? [Re: ByzKat] #363639 04/26/11 03:13 AM
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Otsheylnik Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ByzKat
A good while back, Father Elias (one of the moderators on this forum) stated (in Ripidia)

Quote
Ripidia may be carried at the great entrance, held at the proclamation of the gospel and even at other times.

Their use varies in the Byzantine Churches from Athos (not at all) to America (every Liturgy).


Christ is risen!

Jeff Mierzejewski


Thanks Jeff, that's the answer I was looking for. As I have never been to America, I'm prepared to accept that it's an American usage that is authentically Byzantine, because as we know usage varies place to place - I've never seen it here (ROCOR Australia or Russian Catholic Australia) is all, and prompted the question.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #363645 04/26/11 04:46 AM
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All things considered, St Andrew Russian Catholic Church is quite authentic and un-latinised. I have been there many times and will be there in a few weeks for their annual fund raising rummage sale, May 7th.

As for the chairs, there are only four rows of chairs, in what is a small nave. At Pascha, the church is usually standing room only. During regular Sundays, everyone stands anyway.

In our own parish, the cross and fan are used regularly for both the small and great entrance, for liturgies without the bishop. We haven't had a hierarchical liturgy at the "proto"-cathedral in several years, 2006, the parish 50th anniversary.

Last edited by Steve Petach; 04/26/11 04:55 AM.
Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #398630 08/30/13 08:35 AM
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Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time?

Re: Latinisation? [Re: KevinM09] #398631 08/30/13 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinM09
Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time?
Not exactly. It varies by region, bishop, even parish. Some Oriental Catholics are quite staunch about preserving their non-Latinized Holy Traditions.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #398634 08/30/13 10:58 AM
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Diak Offline
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Quote
In particular, what is the deal with the fans and the processional cross - I have never seen them used at this or any point of the service in ROCOR churches or the Russian Catholic church, with the exception of the hierarchical liturgy (which this isn't) and even then just the fans.

Ned - that is very generally also the rule in the UGCC - ripidia are only used for hierarchal Liturgies. There are exceptions, of course, like St. Elias where they are used more frequently.

My very first liturgy "guru" studied under Patriarch +Josyp of blessed memory in Rome and concluded that this was the Kyivan (Mohylian) tradition.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #398639 08/30/13 12:16 PM
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The ripidia (fans) which we see are elaborate and ceremonial articles which really aren't practical for their intended practical use for the Ruthenian Church.

Their use is mentioned in Ordo Celebrationis (Order of the Divine Liturgies) before the Consecration, "(the deacon) enters the Altar (Sanctuary) through the south door, and takes his place at the right of the priest; if there is need, the deacon takes the ripidion and reverently fans the Holy Gifts. If there is no ripidion, he does the same with the small folded veil."
During the singing of Holy, Holy, Holy "the deacon comes to the priest's right, if there is need he takes the ripidion or the folded small veil into his hands and, with full attention and fear, fans around the Holy Gifts in silence."

The original reason for the the fan was to keep the flies away from the Holy Gifts. Recall that at the great Churches of Constantinople people presented food gifts which were brought into the Church in procession, from which the practice of the Little and Great Entrances had their origin. Of course all of this food was quite an attraction to flies and other insects.

In the "Ordo" glossary there is this definition: Ripidion (plural ripidia; they are usually in pairs) -- liturgical fan, decorated with images of the angels and affixed to a staff. The ripidia are often carried in processions, at the Entrances of the Divine Liturgy, during the reading of the Gospel, and at other solemn moments. Although ripidion is a Greek word, the Greeks tend to call the ripidia the "exapteryga."

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #398641 08/30/13 02:36 PM
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The use of fans does vary. Many clergy have taken to using them all the time, especially where there are plenty of altar servers. Since getting a set at my church, we have only used them on Pascha and for the consecration of our church.

As for the processional cross, Greek and Antiochian churches frequently seem to use the cross at the start of the Little and Great Entrances during the Liturgy. In the Russian tradition, the use of the cross during those parts of the Liturgy is restricted to liturgies served by primates of local churches.

Fr. David

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