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Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: JGlennCee] #398788 09/04/13 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JGlennCee
Weighing in for the continuity of gender in the resurrection, I would point out that gender involves far more than mere sexuality and generation. Characteristics of masculinity include ideas of protection, fatherhood, creativity, and vigilance. Characteristics of femininity include nurturance, maternity and healing.

yes, in EARTHLY life. There is no need of fatherhood, vigilance, protectivity or nurturance with maternity - in heaven.There is no procreation and no threat to the family and offsprings



Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/04/13 05:34 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: JGlennCee] #398789 09/04/13 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JGlennCee
In the Resurrection _all_relationships_ will be transcended because they will be mediated through Christ perfectly, and no longer through our limited modes of human communication such as speech or various forms of nonverbal communication such as sexual intercourse. In the resurrection "we shall know even as we are known". Thus, gender remains as part of our indelible human character but is no longer needed for communication. Glenn.


if we all will change and transcend then why will we need gender? what FOR? Gender is not an indelible human character, it is indelible MAMMAL character - for procreation only.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398790 09/04/13 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Yes, it's sad to see that Vox just may be a Sadducee . . .

Alex


no, it is sad to see YOU and others stubbornly persisting on gender existence in heaven are Sadducees, who were trying to imply we will have it upon Resurrection :rolleyes:


Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/04/13 05:52 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #398792 09/04/13 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius


Yes, the words of Jesus Christ are of *supreme* importance to Christians. However, it is vitally important *not* to read our own suppositions into His words.

As I see it, your interpretation is based on two suppositions:
  • That Our Lord's affirmation of our becoming "as the angels in heaven" necessarily extends beyond the simple fact of not marrying and being given in marriage
  • That having male and female characteristics is completely, necessarily and self-evidently meaningless apart from marrying and being given in marriage

If either of these suppositions is anything less than a mathematical certainty, your thesis becomes dubious, at best.

For my part, I have to say you're the first person I've heard try to affirm this interpretation.

(Btw, the term "afterlife" is a construct of 19th-century rationalists, and has no place in the Christian vocabulary.)


Peace,
Deacon Richard


OK, so what gender will the true hermaphrodites have in heaven? those, who have BOTH masculine and feminine organs and BOTH masculine and feminine chromosomes on Earth?

what gender would these people have - if their whole life on Earth they live as one gender just to find out that by 46th pair of chromosomes they are different?
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/420431/hong-kong-man-finds-he-is-a-woman-after-doctor-visit

or those who are born with total androgenal insensitivity and are chromosomally males XY but phenotypically females? Or the men with la Chapelle syndrome or XX syndrome ( the reverse situation - genotypically female, phenothypically - male)

There are many more combinations when neither phenotype nor genotype correspond to each other and a lot of in-between states ( which are the basis of the transgender disease, from which this thread started) - and those people are not a minority - those occurrences constitute up to 5% of the population ( which is huge)

If such "mistakes of the nature" are occurring ( and they are not that rare) - that is a proof that gender is just a lowly characteristic of our earthly body, which will not persist upon change of our bodies to spiritual bodies.


Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/04/13 05:56 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398810 09/05/13 09:25 AM
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Vox,

Your understanding of gender is a biological one only. It is certainly not how the social and psychological sciences see gender - the position you outline is absurd from the social scientific perspective.

And I speak as a doctor of sociology.

I will leave it at that.

Alex


Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398815 09/05/13 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Vox,

Your understanding of gender is a biological one only. It is certainly not how the social and psychological sciences see gender - the position you outline is absurd from the social scientific perspective.

And I speak as a doctor of sociology.

I will leave it at that.

Alex



Gender IS biological. As is cardiovascular circulation. Are you insisting that we will have aorta and carotids and a four-chamber heart with coronaries in heaven as well? biggrin
Social part of gender has developed BECAUSE of this biological primacy - to protect the offspring and the family.
There are no offsprings and no family and no marriage in heaven - there is no NEED for gender differentiation.

And if by your interpretation it still exists there - please tell me which gender in heaven will a true hermaphrodite have?

Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/05/13 10:21 AM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398818 09/05/13 11:17 AM
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Gender identity is also about choice regarding the set of gender roles within societal constructs that is related to culture.

There can even be third gender identities.

Certainly, in heaven, there will be no need for sexuality of any kind. But gender identity, insofar as it is social and psychological, can transcend, as well as be based on, sexuality.

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398824 09/05/13 12:31 PM
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Za myr z'wysot ...
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Originally Posted by Epiphanius

... it is vitally important *not* to read our own suppositions into [Christ's] words.

As I see it, your interpretation is based on two suppositions:
  • That Our Lord's affirmation of our becoming "as the angels in heaven" necessarily extends beyond the simple fact of not marrying and being given in marriage
  • That having male and female characteristics is completely, necessarily and self-evidently meaningless apart from marrying and being given in marriage

If either of these suppositions is anything less than a mathematical certainty, your thesis becomes dubious, at best.


OK, so what gender will the true hermaphrodites have in heaven? those, who have BOTH masculine and feminine organs and BOTH masculine and feminine chromosomes on Earth?


You haven't even attempted to answer any of my questions to you.

Furthermore, you keep on talking as if the burden of proof is on everyone else, and yet the ONLY evidence you offer in favor of your position is an INTERPRETATION of scriptural passages and an INTERPRETATION of the CCC.

Furthermore, these interpretations are derived ENTIRELY from the SUPPOSITIONS you give below:

Originally Posted by Vox Populi
if we all will change and transcend then why will we need gender? what FOR? Gender is not an indelible human character, it is indelible MAMMAL character - for procreation only.


You make my point here completely. You don't see the reason for something, THEREFORE, it cannot be.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: HeavenlyBlack] #398866 09/05/13 05:59 PM
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Quote
And I speak as a doctor of sociology.


I will try not to hold that against you.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #398871 09/05/13 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
[quote=Epiphanius]
... it is vitally important *not* to read our own suppositions into [Christ's] words.

As I see it, your interpretation is based on two suppositions:
  • That Our Lord's affirmation of our becoming "as the angels in heaven" necessarily extends beyond the simple fact of not marrying and being given in marriage
  • That having male and female characteristics is completely, necessarily and self-evidently meaningless apart from marrying and being given in marriage

If either of these suppositions is anything less than a mathematical certainty, your thesis becomes dubious, at best.




You haven't even attempted to answer any of my questions to you.
You did not ask me any questions. And why on earth do you think that YOUR INTERPRETATIONS are valid and mine are not?
Furthermore, you keep on talking as if the burden of proof is on everyone else, and yet the ONLY evidence you offer in favor of your position is an INTERPRETATION of scriptural passages and an INTERPRETATION of the CCC.

SO IS YOURS smile It is ONLY INTERPRETATION. THAT is MY POINT HERE.
I have not seen anything different from you except interpretation, actually it is just simple objection withput any burden of valid reasons form your part for that objection - objection for the sake of it


Furthermore, these interpretations are derived ENTIRELY from the SUPPOSITIONS you give below:

Originally Posted by Vox Populi
if we all will change and transcend then why will we need gender? what FOR? Gender is not an indelible human character, it is indelible MAMMAL character - for procreation only.


You make my point here completely. You don't see the reason for something, THEREFORE, it cannot be.

You do not make any point. Reasons can not be esoteric. reasons for gender differentiations are FOR PROCREATION only - there are no other reasons and you have not provided ANY, only disputed my position from the point - "it can not be possible, because it is impossible". At least I provided concrete citations, you just stated "you can not make your suppositions" as if you are the ultimate authority to state that smile

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398876 09/05/13 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Gender identity is also about choice regarding the set of gender roles within societal constructs that is related to culture.

and why do we have this societies? what would happen to a society when there is a static number of individuals, and no families and no children and no illness, and no problems, and no death and no boundaries? will that society be coherent and will that be needed( coherency) and if not - what will happen to "societal structure" if it is not needed?

Our society exists because it is temporal and ever-changing, if the individuals( or souls) are eternal and without any ills the mortal creatures have on Earth - there would not be any resemblance to human societies on Earth whatsoever.
AT ALL.
So there would not be any NEED to ANY of the structures or interactions of the earthly human communities.

As a doctor of sociology you should be able to figure it out smile



Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

There can even be third gender identities.

Certainly, in heaven, there will be no need for sexuality of any kind. But gender identity, insofar as it is social and psychological, can transcend, as well as be based on, sexuality.

Alex


ON EARTH!!!! On Earth it social/psychological BECAUSE we are MORTAL and we PROCREATE - and there is NEED to protect the offsprings of us.

There is no procreation in heaven - NONE. There will be STATIC number of inhabitants and they won't have any threats - there won't be any NEED to protect anybody - and absolutely no NEED in our familiar social and psychological interactions.

We will function there on the whole new level - we are going to be upgraded and all our chains of mortality and the need to procreate - will be left here, on Earth.
Therefore everything UNNEEDED will be left behind as well - including gender differentiation, as a specific tool needed for earthly mortal existence but futile for eternity.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: StuartK] #398877 09/05/13 11:12 PM
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Dear Stuart,

Thank you for your magnanimous kindness! smile

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: HeavenlyBlack] #398878 09/05/13 11:15 PM
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and since everybody conveniently forgets to answer the simple question I will repeat it :


OK, so what gender will the true hermaphrodites have in heaven? those, who have BOTH masculine and feminine organs and BOTH masculine and feminine chromosomes on Earth?

what gender would these people have - if their whole life on Earth they live as one gender just to find out that by 46th pair of chromosomes they are different?
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/420431/hong-kong-man-finds-he-is-a-woman-after-doctor-visit

or those who are born with total androgenal insensitivity and are chromosomally males XY but phenotypically females? Or the men with la Chapelle syndrome or XX syndrome ( the reverse situation - genotypically female, phenothypically - male)

There are many more combinations when neither phenotype nor genotype correspond to each other and a lot of in-between states ( which are the basis of the transgender disease, from which this thread started) - and those people are not a minority - those occurrences constitute up to 5% of the population ( which is huge)

If such "mistakes of the nature" are occurring ( and they are not that rare) - that is a proof that gender is just a lowly characteristic of our earthly body, which will not persist upon change of our bodies to spiritual bodies.

Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/05/13 11:16 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398879 09/05/13 11:16 PM
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Dear Voxy,

Actually, I'm a student of the social sciences and many great learned ones have figured this out already.

I just lack the ambition, due to lack of ambition mostly, to want to continue with a tangential argument that is really outside what should be the central focus on Eastern Christianity and the life in Christ.

Thank you very much - no longer interested.

Chest i slava,

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398894 09/06/13 07:56 AM
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^Perhaps we could turn to contemplating the number of angels capable of fitting into a defined space? Seriously though, I can wait to find the answer to this thread's question.

Last edited by DMD; 09/06/13 07:57 AM.
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