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Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398948 09/07/13 08:50 PM
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If someone wants to take a discussion in a different direction--as frequently happens here--that's their prerogative. But to reply to someone's reply without addressing a single point that was brought up is simply rude.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #398962 09/08/13 02:24 PM
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I apologise for my rudeness - I didn't want to take this discussion into any direction. Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #398977 09/09/13 12:23 AM
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"If such "mistakes of the nature" are occurring ( and they are not that rare) - that is a proof that gender is just a lowly characteristic of our earthly body, which will not persist upon change of our bodies to spiritual bodies."

Mistakes are rare enough that they're cannot be understood as being "normal" and "intended" by "Nature" or its Author. Defects will be remedied in the General Resurrection.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #398981 09/09/13 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
I apologise for my rudeness - I didn't want to take this discussion into any direction. Alex

Alex,

My apologies. The comments were intended for Vox Populi.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #398985 09/09/13 11:20 AM
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Dear Epiphanius,

That's OK - to apologise, even when we're not at fault, is good for our humility! smile

Alex

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: t_chan] #398998 09/09/13 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by t_chan
"If such "mistakes of the nature" are occurring ( and they are not that rare) - that is a proof that gender is just a lowly characteristic of our earthly body, which will not persist upon change of our bodies to spiritual bodies."

Mistakes are rare enough that they're cannot be understood as being "normal" and "intended" by "Nature" or its Author. Defects will be remedied in the General Resurrection.


They are not rare - 5% of the population is NOT rare.
So what did the "nature" intend a true hermaphrodite to be?
Saying "defects will be remedied" without actually telling HOW ARE THEY GOING TO BE REMEDIED ( the only way is to actually abolish gender altogether - that is going to be FAIR remedy)is a deflection, not an answer.


Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/09/13 05:06 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #398999 09/09/13 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
I apologise for my rudeness - I didn't want to take this discussion into any direction. Alex

Alex,

My apologies. The comments were intended for Vox Populi.

self-imposed manners police much?

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #399008 09/10/13 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Originally Posted by t_chan
Mistakes are rare enough that they're cannot be understood as being "normal" and "intended" by "Nature" or its Author. Defects will be remedied in the General Resurrection.

They are not rare - 5% of the population is NOT rare.
So what did the "nature" intend a true hermaphrodite to be?
Saying "defects will be remedied" without actually telling HOW ARE THEY GOING TO BE REMEDIED (the only way is to actually abolish gender altogether - that is going to be FAIR remedy) is a deflection, not an answer.

Actually, we can say "defects will be remedied" because God is all-good and we trust in Him to make things right. As far as *what* that remedy will be is not a matter of revelation and can therefore only be a matter of speculation.

Therefore, when you say "the only way is to actually abolish gender altogether," you are actually making that judgment on God's behalf.

Now, when you say "that is going to be FAIR remedy," you are actually correct--that certainly would be an equitable solution. However, please recall the parable of the laborers in the vineyard--God does NOT always do what we assume will be equitable!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #399042 09/10/13 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Originally Posted by t_chan
"If such "mistakes of the nature" are occurring ( and they are not that rare) - that is a proof that gender is just a lowly characteristic of our earthly body, which will not persist upon change of our bodies to spiritual bodies."

Mistakes are rare enough that they're cannot be understood as being "normal" and "intended" by "Nature" or its Author. Defects will be remedied in the General Resurrection.


They are not rare - 5% of the population is NOT rare.
So what did the "nature" intend a true hermaphrodite to be?
Saying "defects will be remedied" without actually telling HOW ARE THEY GOING TO BE REMEDIED ( the only way is to actually abolish gender altogether - that is going to be FAIR remedy)is a deflection, not an answer.



1. Now matter what word you want to use to describe the incidence rate, 5% is low enough that one knows that this is not normal development.

2. Nature (or God) intends each individual to have a specific sex. Defects are the result of problems in the makeup of an organism or something in development going awry. Science has advanced to the point that we know what is the problem for most, if not all.

The autism rate is estimated by some to be 2%. Major physical deformations, one source says 3%. Then there is blindness or deafness. So what is "fair" for each of these cases? That no one have a perfect body in heaven, but rather, that they have abnormal bodies in one way or in all respects?

Your arguments could be applied to any 'birth defect' but you are hung up on this one issue for some reason.

Last edited by t_chan; 09/10/13 11:12 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: HeavenlyBlack] #399043 09/10/13 11:13 PM
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Such physical defects are evil (physical, not moral), but tolerated by God as consequences of the sin and fall of Adam.

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: t_chan] #399096 09/12/13 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by t_chan
Such physical defects are evil (physical, not moral), but tolerated by God as consequences of the sin and fall of Adam.


Nobody is disputing that.

We have a lot of physical defects in our earthly life - clogged coronaries, ruptured aneurysms, fat bodies, malfunctioning livers or double sets of gonads.

Which does not mean we will have all of those in our changed bodies - and neither will we NEED them.

And as we won't need coronaries or livers absolutely in the same way we won't need sex organs( or gonads) - so we won't have them


Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/12/13 01:49 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: t_chan] #399097 09/12/13 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by t_chan


1. Now matter what word you want to use to describe the incidence rate, 5% is low enough that one knows that this is not normal development.

5% is NOT rare - it is 5 people in every 100 which is STATISTICALLY very high incidence rate.
It is basic statistics - from 8th grade.


2. Nature (or God) intends each individual to have a specific sex. Defects are the result of problems in the makeup of an organism or something in development going awry. Science has advanced to the point that we know what is the problem for most, if not all.

God intends us to have gender ON EARTH. And because we all have sins and their consequences ON EARTH - the possibility of hermaphroditism ON EARTH exists.
However, there is going to be NO SIN OR IT"S consequences in heaven - so there is not going to be any afflictions in there - and if so - WHAT gender will the person, who has BOTH on Earth have in heaven ( if you think there is gender differentiation there)?


The autism rate is estimated by some to be 2%. Major physical deformations, one source says 3%. Then there is blindness or deafness. So what is "fair" for each of these cases? That no one have a perfect body in heaven, but rather, that they have abnormal bodies in one way or in all respects?

Your arguments could be applied to any 'birth defect' but you are hung up on this one issue for some reason.


Because it is proving my POINT - there won't be ANY gender in heaven as there is not going to be any impairment of the body there. Having BOTH gender characteristics ( hermaphroditism) IS an earthly impairment, but which part of the gonads are going to be cut if BOTH are equal to suit the theory of gender differentiation in heaven?

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Epiphanius] #399098 09/12/13 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius

Actually, we can say "defects will be remedied" because God is all-good and we trust in Him to make things right. As far as *what* that remedy will be is not a matter of revelation and can therefore only be a matter of speculation.

Therefore, when you say "the only way is to actually abolish gender altogether," you are actually making that judgment on God's behalf.

Now, when you say "that is going to be FAIR remedy," you are actually correct--that certainly would be an equitable solution. However, please recall the parable of the laborers in the vineyard--God does NOT always do what we assume will be equitable!


Peace,
Deacon Richard


No, not necessarily - I am repeating God's words that we will be like Angels and we won't be marrying in heaven - and absence of gender is a direct logical conclusion from that.

If you state that you THINK gender is preserved there - therefore my question - which gender will the hermaphrodites be assigned ( or all others with problems I've mentioned - where the internal perception differ from external presentation and so on) - and what basis for that assignment will be.

If one assumes no gender differentiation in heaven - that takes the question away altogether.

P.S. And of course, these issues are results of speculations - both on your and mine part. Or anybody else.
I just seem to have more logical postulates for my conclusions.

Last edited by Vox Populi; 09/12/13 02:04 PM.
Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #399100 09/12/13 02:34 PM
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^ Isn't having an argument about what is, at best, idle speculation a distraction from our getting to paradise in the first place? Really, is the answer, if there is an answer available to us, to the underlying question really of any import in the here and now?

Re: Feminine and Masculine, East and West [Re: Vox Populi] #399111 09/12/13 07:47 PM
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Sex identity is not determined solely by the organs that are present - one should also consider it at the genetic or cellular level, and so on. God can sort it out, even if you can't.

You can think of it as a rebuilding from the cellular level up, though the resurrection of the body may be instantaneous, rather than occuring through some sort of process. What should have resulted from fertilization and development, in the absence of p physical evil, will be restored and elevated.

Last edited by t_chan; 09/12/13 07:50 PM.
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