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Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Diak] #399233
09/16/13 12:41 PM
09/16/13 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Diak
I suggest attending a celebration of one of the most ancient extant Anaphorae, that of Sts. Addai and Mari. You will find the Kiss of Peace begun with the clergy to the deacons and then passed to the subdeacons (if present) and then the congregation. It is also practiced in the Armenian Apostolic Church with the person offering the greeting inclining his head first to the right, and then to the left of the person with the greeting "Christ is revealed among us" with the response "Blessed is the revelation of Christ."



Yes, but those are no more the traditions of our peoples - Eastern Orhodox or Eastern Catholic - than are mandatory celibacy or liturgical dance.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: DMD] #399234
09/16/13 12:48 PM
09/16/13 12:48 PM
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It was at one time a part of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (c.f. Fr. Taft) beyond just the clergy. I don't necessarily disagree with what you and Fr. James are saying, by the way, as current usage works for me but an absolutist historical approach isn't substantiated. It is also in the Antiochian Archdiocese service books with their justification of a more ancient usage of the Divine Liturgy.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Diak] #399235
09/16/13 01:37 PM
09/16/13 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Diak
It was at one time a part of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (c.f. Fr. Taft) beyond just the clergy. I don't necessarily disagree with what you and Fr. James are saying, by the way, as current usage works for me but an absolutist historical approach isn't substantiated. It is also in the Antiochian Archdiocese service books with their justification of a more ancient usage of the Divine Liturgy.


I am well aware that our rubrics were not handed to St Peter Mohilya on tablets and the evolution of liturgy as we observe it today is a slow and probably ongoing process. But we live in the now and change in the Eastern tradition comes at a heavy price. As to that the Antiochians may do, I know not, but I do know what binds both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Ukrainians, Rusyns, Lemkos to their shared traditions and patrimony (and the very same force which led many of our grandparents time to either resist Rome in America or defend her in the old world) - that is of course the preservation and defense of that very heritage.




Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: babochka] #399237
09/16/13 02:06 PM
09/16/13 02:06 PM
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The first thing I noticed was the priests would say out loud the prayers of the antiphons before the exclamations, which are not called for.

I didn't really care for the skufia for the first deacon. At least he is allowed to wear one during services.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: DMD] #399243
09/16/13 03:57 PM
09/16/13 03:57 PM
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Quote
that is of course the preservation and defense of that very heritage.

I perhaps more than many others am a lover of and staunch defender of the Mohylian liturgical heritage and, as I said, enjoy the current usage and frequently defend it.

As a child of the larger Constantinopolitan heritage, one can't also simply dismiss liturgical scholarship. To my knowledge the Kiss of Peace was never the cause of any of the "schisms" at least in our (Kyivan) church. Taft indicates it ceased between the 11th-13 centuries likely out of convenience so it was likely never known at all in our particular liturgical heritage.

Certainly on Mt. Athos where it is still preserved it is not considered a distraction. I think sometimes some of what we proudly proclaim to be "preservation" is not necessarily of a profound theological nature, especially when it is an ommission. I don't think anyone will deny Athos being a significant liturgical model. Do we not exchange this at Forgiveness Vespers and Pascha? Is it never appropriate? Agian, as someone faithful to the Mohylian liturgical tradition I am simply asking the questions. And it is not just the Antiochians; Fr. Lawrence Farley does it in his OCA parish and has written about the need for its larger restoration.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Diak] #399245
09/16/13 05:14 PM
09/16/13 05:14 PM
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^ All of the faithful would no doubt be scandalized if our Eastern Christian scientists were to develop a church time machine. Upon entering the Hagia Sophia at the height of her majesty, in say the late tenth century, with its resplendent mosaics at the peak of their brilliant color and the long lost, all powerful Pantokrator across the dome, no doubt our babas would shrug, look at us and ask, with an all knowing nod.... "It's nice, but where's the iconostas? " smile

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: babochka] #399246
09/16/13 08:55 PM
09/16/13 08:55 PM
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By the tenth century, there was an iconostasis. Go back about three hundred years, before the renovation, before the iconoclasm.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: StuartK] #399247
09/16/13 09:49 PM
09/16/13 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
By the tenth century, there was an iconostasis. Go back about three hundred years, before the renovation, before the iconoclasm.


I guess the fluxcapacitor needs a tuneup.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Garajotsi] #399254
09/17/13 10:09 AM
09/17/13 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Garajotsi
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV.
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya,

Having "been there and done that," I can say that it's quite possible the cantor or choir director was simply nervous and intoned the Trisagion by mistake, with everyone joining in before anyone realized this wasn't right--and then it was too late to change. frown


Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Epiphanius] #399263
09/17/13 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Garajotsi
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV.
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya,

Having "been there and done that," I can say that it's quite possible the cantor or choir director was simply nervous and intoned the Trisagion by mistake, with everyone joining in before anyone realized this wasn't right--and then it was too late to change. frown



Been there, done that too! You just keep going, I was taught. It's better than stopping dead in your tracks when cantorng.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: babochka] #400443
10/21/13 05:36 PM
10/21/13 05:36 PM
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Interesting enough, the melody to the Hymn of the Incarnation sounds a lot like the one most Ruthenian Churches use.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: 8IronBob] #400448
10/21/13 06:36 PM
10/21/13 06:36 PM
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It's amazing how two such culturally different traditions can have similar music!

Alex

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #400478
10/22/13 09:31 AM
10/22/13 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
It's amazing how two such culturally different traditions can have similar music!

Alex


You are joking about our (Rusyn and Ukrainian) cultural traditions being "so different"? Right? They are not identical, but there are pretty darn close on a global scale.

I know I'll get kicked out of the "Rusyn Club" for suggesting the same and you'll be hauled before the "Ukrainian Inquisitors" if you agree with me, but (I wish I remembered ponashemu sayings here) truth is truth regardless of how it's varnished.

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: DMD] #400840
10/29/13 05:48 PM
10/29/13 05:48 PM
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Dear DMD,

Yes indeed! I remember when a Rusyn bishop was going to address a group of UGCC priests and he said that he was going to speak Rusyn, so we were to bear with him.

He then went on and on until I thought . . . now when was he going to start speaking in Rusyn? I braced myself and found that Rusyn was as understandable to me as Ukrainian.

Ukrainians themselves have always called each other "Rusyns." Such as, "Well, you know, I'm obviously a stupid Rusyn for having done that . . ."

It could have pejorative connotations, depending on who is calling you that and how.

The Rusyny are so close to the Ukies so as to be virtually indistinguishable . . .

I think I hear footsteps . . . see you later!

Alex

Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #400904
10/30/13 03:30 PM
10/30/13 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear DMD,

Yes indeed! I remember when a Rusyn bishop was going to address a group of UGCC priests and he said that he was going to speak Rusyn, so we were to bear with him.

He then went on and on until I thought . . . now when was he going to start speaking in Rusyn? I braced myself and found that Rusyn was as understandable to me as Ukrainian.

Ukrainians themselves have always called each other "Rusyns." Such as, "Well, you know, I'm obviously a stupid Rusyn for having done that . . ."

It could have pejorative connotations, depending on who is calling you that and how.

The Rusyny are so close to the Ukies so as to be virtually indistinguishable . . .

I think I hear footsteps . . . see you later!

Alex


The folks at the UGC Church here at home truly loved my dad, the long time Rusyn Orthodox priest, but they would tease him - and he would tease back - about who had the 'proper' accent. Of course in Kiev or Odessa they would all be viewed as indistinguishable 'provincials' or 'country folk' for our American readers. That was the inside joke.

Our family was from the Slovak side of the Dukla pass along the Tatra mountains and many of the UGCC parish who were dispossessed after the war hailed from the Polish side of the same divide. Good memories. Good people.

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