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Dear Catholicos,

You go man!

We need "Mor Ephrem" here!!

(Please forgive me, but I had an uncontrollable need to say that after all these years . . .)

Alex

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Dear Alex,

There are worse things to do on impulse. smile

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Originally Posted by Mor Ephrem
I don't intend to be disrespectful, but under just what circumstances are Latin hosts "easier to come by" than the traditional bread? The latter is made by the priest himself or someone he delegates, takes several hours (mostly waiting for the dough to rise), and is made of ingredients which are fairly easy to acquire (wheat flour, water, the leaven, a pinch of salt, and a bit of olive oil). As you mentioned, you need the proper seal, but if unstamped Latin hosts are the alternative, you could probably just bake the proper bread without the seal if the priest doesn't have one--but it's not like those are hard to obtain either. I'm struggling to imagine a regular, persistent situation in which Latin hosts would be the only viable alternative.
Good to see ya on here again! No disrespect felt at all, and I'm glad you asked. The truth is, I don't like it either - but some priests don't want to spend the time to do it. In most parishes in the US, the clergy and laity are used to handling the Latin style hosts and just pop one or a few out of the box of 100. They prefer a flat bread (to adopt to Latin practices like Adoration) so to make it from the previous leaven, as is the proper manner, it would take some kind of heavy pressing equipment. I don't like it, and my thinking is one mistake leads to another leads to another, like downhill rolling stones. If we didn't want to emulate the Latins for Adoration, flat hosts wouldn't be a need; we wouldn't need equipment; the priest or a delegate could make it; and the proper practice maintained.

Again, good to see your post - it's been a long, long time. Are you now a priest?

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Again, good to see your post - it's been a long, long time. Are you now a priest?


Not at all, I am still among "the brethren". smile

Is the main reason for the use of Latin hosts so that you can have Eucharistic Adoration? That wouldn't be feasible with a leavened loaf, of course, but if it's merely a matter of receiving the Eucharist "flattened", that's not only possible with leavened bread, but is somewhat foreseen by the liturgical rubrics for the rite of fraction.

Speaking of which, how do they do the fraction with an unleavened host? It's not as easy to break according to the seasonal patterns, I'd imagine. And is Communion with unleavened hosts given by intinction or by some other means?

If you don't know how to prepare the dough, doing so can be a struggle until you figure it out. I know priests who can do it in ten minutes or less, but I've never been able to do it in under half an hour. The baking is another matter. Hosts are much easier, I'll give them that. But still, you lose something, and I don't just mean taste.

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Dear Michael Toma,

You are perhaps unaware of a very important fact concerning Mor Ephrem . . .

Several years ago, he was conditionally consecrated a Catholicos with jurisdiction in New Orleans and throughout North America (I don't believe Todd will want to comment on that . . .).

The problem with forced, vagante consecrations like that is that they are largely deemed to be irregular.

However, we don't really know what Mor Ephrem's status is as a result of that pronouncement.

Just to be on the safe side, however, I and some others refer to him as the "Catholicos."

FYI.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Mor Ephrem
Is the main reason for the use of Latin hosts so that you can have Eucharistic Adoration?
I think most folks are used to it, since the much larger Latin and Syro-Malabar Churches practice, and for Adoration, reservation, etc.
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That wouldn't be feasible with a leavened loaf, of course
Actually, you'd be surprised, I've seen some interesting Byzantine versions of Adoration with the leavened host.
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Speaking of which, how do they do the fraction with an unleavened host? It's not as easy to break according to the seasonal patterns, I'd imagine.
It actually works the same as with a leavened host. The priest with impress the unconsecrated host during the Thuyobo (preparatory, for our non-Syriac friends) with the sharp edge of the paten, which makes the division much easier post-Epiclesis.
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And is Communion with unleavened hosts given by intinction or by some other means?
Always intinction, the Most Precious Body is dipped by the priest into the Most Precious Blood and placed into the mouth of the communicant.

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If you don't know how to prepare the dough, doing so can be a struggle until you figure it out.
I've been on that team, very difficult to control. But we had equipment brought in from India to regulate the temperature of the baking process. Unfortunately heating a 220/50v hot plate at 50hz doesn't work quite right with 110/20v and 60hz.
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I know priests who can do it in ten minutes or less, but I've never been able to do it in under half an hour. The baking is another matter.
I think I have the proper amount of flour at this stage, it's a consistent temperature and how much time to let rise that bewilder me.
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Hosts are much easier, I'll give them that. But still, you lose something, and I don't just mean taste.
I have argued for switching to Byzantine bread as a default when we can't make our own, but no one's on my side with that - and I'm a nobody, so my vote ain't even worth 1.

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Michael Toma,

You are perhaps unaware of a very important fact concerning Mor Ephrem . . .

Several years ago, he was conditionally consecrated a Catholicos with jurisdiction in New Orleans and throughout North America (I don't believe Todd will want to comment on that . . .).

The problem with forced, vagante consecrations like that is that they are largely deemed to be irregular.

However, we don't really know what Mor Ephrem's status is as a result of that pronouncement.

Just to be on the safe side, however, I and some others refer to him as the "Catholicos."

FYI.

Alex


Thank God for Google as this ^ perplexed me.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/171445/For_Mor_Ephrem_Phil

smile

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Actually, you'd be surprised, I've seen some interesting Byzantine versions of Adoration with the leavened host.


You're right, I think I'd be surprised too. :P

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It actually works the same as with a leavened host. The priest with impress the unconsecrated host during the Thuyobo (preparatory, for our non-Syriac friends) with the sharp edge of the paten, which makes the division much easier post-Epiclesis.


If they're going to go through that much trouble, why use the edge of a paten and eventually ruin it? They should just use the Byzantine communion spear: the spear is awesome!

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I have argued for switching to Byzantine bread as a default when we can't make our own, but no one's on my side with that - and I'm a nobody, so my vote ain't even worth 1.


Really, there's not much of a difference (that I'm aware of anyway) between Byzantine and Syriac bread except in the use of previous batch's leaven and the type of seal used. There's really no excuse not to use the latter, seals are readily available in India, and in different sizes (I've seen them as small as a half-dollar and as large as an Eggo waffle). Regarding the leaven, I think it's important to maintain the traditional practice, but it may not be possible--have the Malankara Catholics maintained their supply of the leaven? If Latin hosts are so popular, I imagine there's probably not so much, if there's any left at all. But who knows?

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Originally Posted by Mor Ephrem
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Actually, you'd be surprised, I've seen some interesting Byzantine versions of Adoration with the leavened host.


You're right, I think I'd be surprised too. :P

Let's see:

http://www.mgce.uz.ua/albums/904/IMG_0021.jpg
http://mgce.uz.ua/albums/1262/IMG_0022.jpg
http://www.mgce.uz.ua/albums/904/IMG_0012.jpg
http://mgce.uz.ua/photogallery.php?album_key=1262
http://www.mgce.uz.ua/photogallery.php?album_key=1755
http://mgce.uz.ua/iphotogallery.php?album_key=1289&lang_id=2
http://www.mgce.uz.ua/photogallery.php?album_key=2340

Surprised now?

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^ Now THESE ^ are what you gotta call "Latinizations." My dad admitted to me he remembered the same in New Jersey as a boy in his Greek Catholic church in the late 1920s. Latin Rite religious would conduct missions annually with Eucharistic adorations, a practice foreign to some from the old country (depending where they came from) and the practice became one of the "bones of contention" when the "borba" erupted in the mid 1930s.

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Surprised now?


Yes, but not in the way I hoped I'd be. God bless those people for their faith in him and their public witness, but this practice strikes me as quite bizarre in a way that Latin Eucharistic devotions don't.

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Originally Posted by Mor Ephrem
Really, there's not much of a difference (that I'm aware of anyway) between Byzantine and Syriac bread except in the use of previous batch's leaven and the type of seal used. There's really no excuse not to use the latter, seals are readily available in India, and in different sizes (I've seen them as small as a half-dollar and as large as an Eggo waffle). Regarding the leaven, I think it's important to maintain the traditional practice, but it may not be possible--have the Malankara Catholics maintained their supply of the leaven? If Latin hosts are so popular, I imagine there's probably not so much, if there's any left at all. But who knows?
We do maintain the leaven, in India they make their own bread. We used to make our own here in the States (at least in some parishes) but stopped due to various reasons. I read that the Syriacs no longer maintain the leaven as strictly as in India - any info on that?

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

When the Melkite Church officially adopted the feast of the "Falling Asleep of St Joseph" on March 19 and that of "Corpus Christi" - it did so on its own and because, if I'm correct, because it wanted to as opposed to being "obliged" or "forced" to.


The propers for those two feasts are found in the Byzantine Daily Worship, which was praised by His Beatitude Maximos V Hakim as having "all elements foreign to the Byzantine rite" deleted. So, it would seem His Beatitude did not see the addition of these two feasts nor the inclusion of Byzantine Benediction as foreign to the Melkite Church.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I read that the Syriacs no longer maintain the leaven as strictly as in India - any info on that?


Just an anecdote, nothing "official". I studied with a deacon from Aleppo, and I asked him if they kept the leaven in the same way we do, or else how they prepare their bread. He'd never heard of anyone keeping such a custom. According to him, on Sunday morning, some deacon(s) will go to the local bakery and purchase dough from the proprietor (typically a Muslim), and then they'll take the dough to the church, form the loaves, stamp them, and bake them, selecting the best for the Eucharist and distributing the rest as antidoron.

That seems a lot easier!

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Re: the leaven. I thought the "malka" was primarily an East Syrian (Church of the East) tradition. Its use in the Church in India speaks to church's East Syrian foundations (even of those following the West Syrian rite).

Fr. David

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