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Chtec #398713 09/02/13 10:15 PM
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Bless Father David,

Was the original purpose of the fans to keep flies away from the altar wine?

Reverencing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

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Yes, I believe so. The rubrics for their use during the Anaphora are still present in liturgical books, as is the mention that one of the small veils may be used in place of a fan. In the Russian tradition, the gifts are only fanned by a deacon on the day of his ordination; it is not done at other times. However, over time, the fans have also become ceremonial items, being carried over holy items or in processions.

Fr. David

Chtec #398721 09/02/13 11:04 PM
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Bless Father David!

You mean the veil or square that I see our deacons move over the Gifts during the Divine Liturgy?

Reverencing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by KevinM09
Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time?
Not exactly. It varies by region, bishop, even parish. Some Oriental Catholics are quite staunch about preserving their non-Latinized Holy Traditions.


That's true, but sadly it mainly applies to the Syro-Malankara. I do, however, give immense credit to the Chaldeans for their attempts at restoration. And to the Syro-Malabars, particularly now under the tutelage of Mar George, for trying to eliminate latinizations, both those externally and internally imposed. But the rest of the Orient? Not so much. frown The rest of the Orient is actually embracing Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization more and more. It's truly sad. mad

malphono #398870 09/05/13 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by malphono
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by KevinM09
Would it be safe to say that the Byzantine Churches are better at delatinizing while the Oriental Churches are having a more difficult time?
Not exactly. It varies by region, bishop, even parish. Some Oriental Catholics are quite staunch about preserving their non-Latinized Holy Traditions.


That's true, but sadly it mainly applies to the Syro-Malankara. I do, however, give immense credit to the Chaldeans for their attempts at restoration. And to the Syro-Malabars, particularly now under the tutelage of Mar George, for trying to eliminate latinizations, both those externally and internally imposed. But the rest of the Orient? Not so much. frown The rest of the Orient is actually embracing Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization more and more. It's truly sad. mad


What about the Armenian and Ethiopian Catholics? How are they when it comes to latinization?

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Isn't there a movement in the Maronite Church to return to authentic Maronite Traditions and Lliturgical praxis?

Anthony #398897 09/06/13 09:20 AM
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From what I've heard, both are in pretty bad shape in that department. frown

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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Isn't there a movement in the Maronite Church to return to authentic Maronite Traditions and Lliturgical praxis?


Well, yes, but there are two things here. The first is the revisionists (who are, of course, the ones in power) insist that they're doing just that. Sounds like the Novus Ordo, doesn't it? smirk The second follows from the first, in that the real movement for restoration is thwarted, ignored, and ridiculed (e.g. we're often referred to as "crackpots" or worse) by those in power. It's truly an uphill struggle.

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Originally Posted by ukrainiancatholic
I cannot speak to any Russian practice, Orthodox or Catholic, but my experience is that cross and fans are normally stationary behind the Altar, and only removed for processions on Feasts days. In other places, I have seen that fans brought out for the time of the Gospel reading. Most places, they just stay behind the Altar the whole time, from what I have seen.

I do not consider the processional fans or cross to be a Latinization. The only Latinization I see if that God-forsaken chair shown in the clip. Chairs are a distant cousin of the pew, which is known by all as a Protestant heresy, so the chair, being basically a mini, one-person pew, is slightly heretical at worst, but a Latinization at best. grin


Naw. Pews existed well before the reformation. You're simply parroting myth meant to demean.

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I was told that the fans harken back to the times when the sacrifice (flesh of an animal sacrificed on the altar) where used to keep the flies off the offering ... having nothing to do with flies in wine.

One church I attended used the fans at every Great Entrance and even the Little Entrance and were used on each side of the Gospel. In fact everything in the sanctuary was used for both little and Great entrance - censer - lights - fans - cross -

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Originally Posted by Franciscum
Originally Posted by ukrainiancatholic

I do not consider the processional fans or cross to be a Latinization. The only Latinization I see if that God-forsaken chair shown in the clip. Chairs are a distant cousin of the pew, which is known by all as a Protestant heresy, so the chair, being basically a mini, one-person pew, is slightly heretical at worst, but a Latinization at best. grin


Naw. Pews existed well before the reformation. You're simply parroting myth meant to demean.


What are you saying Franciscum, that pews being a "protestantism" is a "village legend"? smile

Just wondering.....did they make the Emperor and Patriach stand in Hagia Sophia?

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Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization. There are ancient pre-schism rubrics that refer to sitting. For example the Psalms are divided into Kathisma, which means sitting for the people sat when the Psalms were read. We have an ancient service to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary called the Akathist Hymn which literally translates "Not sitting." If the ancient Church of Constantinople had a service called "Not Sitting," that means that the faithful sat at times during services.
There are pews in St. Mary's Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus for the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. There are also pews in St.George's Cathedral the Cathedral for the Ecumenical Patriarch. Monasteries have a kind of pew along the sides of the Nave.

Archpriest John W. Morris


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In Antiochian Orthodox practice the cross and lanterns are used for the Little Entrance. The Cross and fans are used for the Great Entrance which unlike the Russian practice goes down the side aisle to the back of the Nave and then down the central aisle to the Solea.

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Originally Posted by Fr. John Morris
The Cross and fans are used for the Great Entrance which unlike the Russian practice goes down the side aisle to the back of the Nave and then down the central aisle to the Solea.


Yes. I like this practice of the Antiochians. smile

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Originally Posted by Fr. John Morris
Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization.


I have a question for you Father. The Antiochian parishes (and some Greeks) have the epistle reader facing the people with their backs to the Altar when they read the epistle. Most other jurisdictions have the epistle reader facing the Altar when they read. What is the reason for this? Was it changed at some point by the Antiochian Orthodox, and if so, by whom?

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