The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog, JanSorman, Icons
5654 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Utroque), 161 guests, and 162 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,866
Posts412,722
Members5,654
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Latinisation? [Re: Fr. John Morris] #399700 10/03/13 11:09 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Originally Posted by Fr. John Morris
Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization. There are ancient pre-schism rubrics that refer to sitting. For example the Psalms are divided into Kathisma, which means sitting for the people sat when the Psalms were read. We have an ancient service to the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary called the Akathist Hymn which literally translates "Not sitting." If the ancient Church of Constantinople had a service called "Not Sitting," that means that the faithful sat at times during services.
There are pews in St. Mary's Patriarchal Cathedral in Damascus for the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. There are also pews in St.George's Cathedral the Cathedral for the Ecumenical Patriarch. Monasteries have a kind of pew along the sides of the Nave.

Archpriest John W. Morris




Quite right, Father!

It's funny how in both matters pertaining to religion or Faith, a strongly held opinion often is more powerful than are facts. Oh well....

Re: Latinisation? [Re: DMD] #399703 10/03/13 12:29 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
While we are at it, another 'false' charge of Latinizing which we hear all of the time at ACROD, and I am sure that many BCC and UGCC folks hear it as well, is that commemorative liturgies for the intention of the departed are somehow 'un-Orthodox.'

It must be OK though if you are a departed Tsar or member of the immediate Royal Family...Here is a Liturgy celebrated last SUNDAY by the Patriarch of Moscow in commemoration of the departed Romanov's and the 400th anniversay of the establishment of their dynasty. The ektenia prior to the Cherubic hymn is the same as we chant in our liturgies and in the same place. (In ACROD we don't do that on a Sunday....)

The videography is beautiful in HD if you have the CPU to watch, it is worth the time. The closeups on the chalice are stunning and it is well produced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX26vDokyU4

The more I learn the more I am convinced that many things for which the 'L' charge is hurled out can be found in one or more of the local practices or traditions of various Orthodox communities.

Thoughts on this one anyone? Thanks...

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Fr. John Morris] #399707 10/03/13 02:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,606
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,606
Originally Posted by Fr. John Morris
Seating for the Faithful is not a Latinization. There are ancient pre-schism rubrics that refer to sitting.
Dear Very Rev. Father - the original argument wasn't in regard to seating, but pews. Pews are a latin and protestant custom. Seating is a universal option, in India the preferred seating is on the floor/rug/carpet.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399711 10/03/13 05:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Indeed, at Hagia Sophia, while proper seats were available in the mezzanine for the imperial family and the nobility, the people just plopped down on the floor. As for the Kathismata, these monastic readings of the Psalms ("while seated") were originally done in the trapezium, and later removed to Vespers, Orthros and the other Hours.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399723 10/03/13 07:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,759
Paul B Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,759
If our people "plopped" on the floor we would need numerous physical therapists to help them up. smile Pews make much more sense because you can get an assist by pulling on the seat in front of you. Try that with folding chairs. rofl,,, no rofh (rolling on the floor hurting.

Out West where everyone is young they don't have to be sensitive to this issue.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399725 10/03/13 09:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Quote
Pews make much more sense because you can get an assist by pulling on the seat in front of you.

They also lock you rigidly in your place and make it impossible to move about the nave in response to the flow of the liturgy, to say nothing of actually worshiping with your whole body.

The elderly can be provided with chairs and benches, placed around the nave as needed. But pews were, are and will always remain, an abomination. "Take them out and burn them".

Re: Latinisation? [Re: StuartK] #399728 10/03/13 09:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Recluse Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Originally Posted by StuartK
But pews were, are and will always remain, an abomination. "Take them out and burn them".


Indeed. grin

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Recluse] #399734 10/03/13 10:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
Lester S Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by StuartK
But pews were, are and will always remain, an abomination. "Take them out and burn them".


Indeed. grin


second the motion :p biggrin

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399744 10/04/13 03:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,571
O
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,571
This will be understood by the oldies amongst us

Bring back Illya with his electric chain saw biggrin

But please leave somewhere for me to sit when necessary

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Our Lady's slave] #399781 10/04/13 08:38 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 403
John Doucette Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 403
If I did not sit down during parts of the Liturgy or liturgical services I would collapse due to an old ankle injury and an essential tremor.

Slava Isusu Khrystu

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399786 10/04/13 11:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Quote
If I did not sit down during parts of the Liturgy or liturgical services I would collapse due to an old ankle injury and an essential tremor.


The do so. The Lord does not insist on what we cannot give. But norms should be norms, and exceptions granted liberally, rather than to discard the norm in the name of pragmatism, compassion, or whatever.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #399845 10/06/13 04:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
B
bergschlawiner Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
People plopping down on the floor again! Think I mentioned before going to a local Antiochean totally anglo convert church where the entire congregation "plopped" on the floor at certain times, like the epistle, sermon, etc. Never saw this before in any other churches, Orthodox of otherwise and it seemed somewhat "oriental"

Re: Latinisation? [Re: bergschlawiner] #400005 10/11/13 04:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,433
G
griego catolico Offline
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
People plopping down on the floor again! Think I mentioned before going to a local Antiochean totally anglo convert church where the entire congregation "plopped" on the floor at certain times, like the epistle, sermon, etc. Never saw this before in any other churches, Orthodox of otherwise and it seemed somewhat "oriental"


Sitting on the floor during the homily was practiced by parishioners at the former location of Our Lady of Fatima Russian Byzantine Catholic Church in San Francisco. Photo.

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #400007 10/11/13 06:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
B
bergschlawiner Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 576
Why not just remain standing? Why sit or squat?

Re: Latinisation? [Re: Otsheylnik] #400010 10/11/13 07:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
In Chrysostom's time, a homily could go on for an hour or more.

Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Administrator, Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3