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Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #400262 10/18/13 02:25 AM
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Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
why do Orthodox Christians and saints of the East engage in all sorts of "podvigs" of prayer etc.?
1. They assist us in our progress in theosis
2. They may act in a therapeutic way in our struggle with the passions, engrained sinful habits, etc.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Apotheoun] #400264 10/18/13 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
As far as liturgical commemoration is concerned, we also liturgically commemorate the conception of St. John the Baptist and yet his conception was perfectly normal.
In the Syriac East, both Orthodox and Catholic, it is pretty well accepted theologoumena that both the Theotokos and "M'mdono"(the Baptizer) were born in a unique and 'immaculate' way - St. Mary conceived in a special way for her vocation, and St. John blessed in the womb for recognizing his cousin the Lord and leaping in praise. In the Syriac Holy Qurbono of St. James, it is "Mary, who gave you birth" and "John, who baptised you" who are first invocated for our intercession. They are requested in every Holy Qurbono, traditionally their images were placed on the sides of the Altar - St. Mary on the right and St. John on the left. Also uniquely, the only conception celebrated on the Calender is St. Anne's of St. Mary, and the only Birth is of St. John the Baptizer in the Liturgical Year - no other Conception or Birth.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #400267 10/18/13 11:33 AM
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Apotheoun Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
As far as liturgical commemoration is concerned, we also liturgically commemorate the conception of St. John the Baptist and yet his conception was perfectly normal.
In the Syriac East, both Orthodox and Catholic, it is pretty well accepted theologoumena that both the Theotokos and "M'mdono"(the Baptizer) were born in a unique and 'immaculate' way - St. Mary conceived in a special way for her vocation, and St. John blessed in the womb for recognizing his cousin the Lord and leaping in praise. In the Syriac Holy Qurbono of St. James, it is "Mary, who gave you birth" and "John, who baptised you" who are first invocated for our intercession. They are requested in every Holy Qurbono, traditionally their images were placed on the sides of the Altar - St. Mary on the right and St. John on the left. Also uniquely, the only conception celebrated on the Calender is St. Anne's of St. Mary, and the only Birth is of St. John the Baptizer in the Liturgical Year - no other Conception or Birth.

That is an interesting opinion, but opinions are not "dogmas." Do the Syriac Christians also believe that Mary was impeccable, that is, unable to sin? Because that is one of the consequences of the "immaculate conception" theory in the Roman Church.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #400269 10/18/13 02:05 PM
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I've gotten a penance every time I've gone to confession in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #400270 10/18/13 02:17 PM
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Mor Ephrem Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
In the Syriac East, both Orthodox and Catholic, it is pretty well accepted theologoumena that both the Theotokos and "M'mdono"(the Baptizer) were born in a unique and 'immaculate' way - St. Mary conceived in a special way for her vocation, and St. John blessed in the womb for recognizing his cousin the Lord and leaping in praise.


I don't think it's accurate to say they were "born in a unique...way". That their conceptions and births are special is without a doubt true, but they were born in the same way as anyone else is born.

Quote
In the Syriac Holy Qurbono of St. James, it is "Mary, who gave you birth" and "John, who baptised you" who are first invocated for our intercession. They are requested in every Holy Qurbono, traditionally their images were placed on the sides of the Altar - St. Mary on the right and St. John on the left. Also uniquely, the only conception celebrated on the Calender is St. Anne's of St. Mary, and the only Birth is of St. John the Baptizer in the Liturgical Year - no other Conception or Birth.


The calendar contains feasts for the birth of Our Lady and of St John the Baptist, but to my knowledge there are no feasts for their conceptions. I imagine that such possibly exist(ed), but with the 19th century calendar reforms, it's likely that they fell out of observance (they are not major feasts, after all). At least this is the case in the Orthodox Church. If the various Syriac Catholic Churches have these feasts, either they have maintained an earlier tradition or have adopted Latin feasts.

Where did you get the information regarding the icons of Our Lady and St John and their traditional placement within the altar? I've never come across anything like that, and would be happy to consult a source.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Apotheoun] #400271 10/18/13 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Do the Syriac Christians also believe that Mary was impeccable, that is, unable to sin? Because that is one of the consequences of the "immaculate conception" theory in the Roman Church.


We would not say she was impeccable, but certainly she was sinless. She could've sinned, she had the capability of making such choices, but she perfectly cooperated with divine grace and never chose other than the will of God. According to the word of Christ, it is the one who hears the Word of God and keeps it who is his mother, and our fathers taught that because she alone did this perfectly, she conceived him and brought him forth spiritually before doing so physically. She was chosen to be his mother in the flesh because she was already, in this sense, his mother.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Apotheoun] #400274 10/18/13 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
That is an interesting opinion, but opinions are not "dogmas." Do the Syriac Christians also believe that Mary was impeccable, that is, unable to sin? Because that is one of the consequences of the "immaculate conception" theory in the Roman Church.


False. The Immaculate Conception did not render Mary unable to sin anymore than the Adam and Eve creation free from sin rendered them unable to sin. Free will is never taken away.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose] #400275 10/18/13 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Since there is no Orthodox belief in Purgatory nor in any temporal punishment due to sin, what are the Orthodox indulgences accomplishing?


Father Ambrose, would you please explain that there is "no temporal punishment due to sin?" What do you mean by temporal? I thought it means "of this world." Certainly there is a consequence of sin which has adverse effect on human lives in our earthly state.
I am perplexed by your comment.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #400276 10/18/13 08:21 PM
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Irish,

With regard to indulgences, I would post using this line of thought.......

The granting of an indulgence is an ideal which was granted to the Apostles by Christ "Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven." However, it is very much subject to abuse and may endanger a soul, rather than purify it. If one takes an indulgence as literal, then an unrepentant soul who "just bought Heaven" now may turn to vice.

If one argues that one must remain repentant or the indulgence is meaningless he would be in conflict with my 60 year- old prayer book; it has a "Prayer Before A Crucifix" and this follows "A plenary indulgence may be gained by the faithful who, after Communion, shall devoutly recite this prayer before an image or picture of Christ crucified, and shall pray for the intentions of the Holy Father, one "Our Father and one "Hail Mary." (Pius IX, 7/31/1858.)

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Paul B] #400279 10/19/13 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Since there is no Orthodox belief in Purgatory nor in any temporal punishment due to sin, what are the Orthodox indulgences accomplishing?


Father Ambrose, would you please explain that there is "no temporal punishment due to sin?" What do you mean by temporal? I thought it means "of this world." Certainly there is a consequence of sin which has adverse effect on human lives in our earthly state.
I am perplexed by your comment.


Deacon Paul,

I just read an email that Father Ambrose sent me a couple of hours ago. He asks your indulgence (no pun intended biggrin ) and will reply to you as soon as he is able - hopefully tomorrow morning - as he's currently experiencing some computer issues with his connection here.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Paul B] #400283 10/19/13 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul B


If one argues that one must remain repentant or the indulgence is meaningless he would be in conflict with my 60 year- old prayer book; it has a "Prayer Before A Crucifix" and this follows "A plenary indulgence may be gained by the faithful who, after Communion, shall devoutly recite this prayer before an image or picture of Christ crucified, and shall pray for the intentions of the Holy Father, one "Our Father and one "Hail Mary." (Pius IX, 7/31/1858.)


It is my understanding that one of the conditions of a plenary indulgence is that one must be completely detached from sin. Complete detachment from all sin is pretty difficult to achieve and presupposes repentance.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #400285 10/19/13 03:07 AM
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Apotheoun Offline
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
That is an interesting opinion, but opinions are not "dogmas." Do the Syriac Christians also believe that Mary was impeccable, that is, unable to sin? Because that is one of the consequences of the "immaculate conception" theory in the Roman Church.


False. The Immaculate Conception did not render Mary unable to sin anymore than the Adam and Eve creation free from sin rendered them unable to sin. Free will is never taken away.

That is your opinion, but I can supply quotations from dozens of Catholic theologians - all in good standing with the Roman Church - who taught as a doctrine that the Virgin Mary was unable to sin. Alas, just as some Catholics today like to down play purgatory, so too many like to down play what the Roman Church's theologians (and hierarchs) have taught about Mary's inability to sin.

Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Paul B] #400287 10/19/13 09:01 AM
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Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Father Ambrose, would you please explain that there is "no temporal punishment due to sin?" What do you mean by temporal? I thought it means "of this world."
The CCC:

"The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains." (CCC #1473)

"The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:.....remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin" (CCC #1496)

The Baltimore Catechism:

"Does the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, always take away all punishment?

"The sacrament of Penance, worthily received, always takes away all eternal punishment; but it does not always take away all temporal punishment." (Baltimore Catechism #422)

"What are the chief means of satisfying the debt of our temporal punishment, besides the penance imposed after confession?

"Besides the penance imposed after confession, the chief means of satisfying the debt of our temporal punishment are: prayer, attending Mass, fasting, almsgiving, the works of mercy, the patient endurance of sufferings, and indulgences." (Baltimore Catechism #425)

Father Paul, because it's 2am NZ time and I must get some sleep, I would like to delay answering your question specifically until tomorrow - unless some kind soul would like to answer sooner.

Last edited by Hieromonk Ambrose; 10/19/13 09:05 AM.
Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Apotheoun] #400288 10/19/13 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
That is an interesting opinion, but opinions are not "dogmas." Do the Syriac Christians also believe that Mary was impeccable, that is, unable to sin? Because that is one of the consequences of the "immaculate conception" theory in the Roman Church.


False. The Immaculate Conception did not render Mary unable to sin anymore than the Adam and Eve creation free from sin rendered them unable to sin. Free will is never taken away.

That is your opinion, but I can supply quotations from dozens of Catholic theologians - all in good standing with the Roman Church - who taught as a doctrine that the Virgin Mary was unable to sin. Alas, just as some Catholics today like to down play purgatory, so too many like to down play what the Roman Church's theologians (and hierarchs) have taught about Mary's inability to sin.


That some taught it does not make it an automatic consequence of belief in the IC, any more than Name-worshipping is an automatic consequence of hesychasm.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Why no penance in the East? [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #400290 10/19/13 10:46 AM
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Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

How did this question of penance as part of the mystery of Confession get to the Immaculate Conception? And how did it get to the Mother of God's inability or ability to sin?

I confess I can't see where either of these tangents relate to the original question.

Please stick to the question of this thread. If there is a need to discuss either or both of these other points, please open a new thread.

Bob
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