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Originally Posted by Filipe YTOL
In the West we consider that the bride and groom are the ministers of the sacrament, but in the East it is the Priest/Deacon... So I understand the Eastern practice as being the Church taking the liberty of giving something which it is entitled to give or remove.


Just a small correction: in the Orthodox Church (and I am assuming in the Greek Catholic Church also) the Deacon is never the "minister of the Sacrament/Mystery." Only the presbyter or bishop can be considered that. I am personally bewildered by the fact that since Vatican II Roman Catholic deacons perform marriages. It is perplexing to me that so many areas of sacramental tradition of two thousand years duration are blithely thrown out the window by the Roman Catholic Church. Examples of this are reducing the Eucharistic fast to three hours and now all but eliminating it; the faithful now reguarly receiving Holy Communion before they have been Confirmed; Confimation now being delayed until late adolescence; Deacons now performing Marriages without a priest; the laity distributing Holy Communion to other laity, etc.)

Fr David Straut

Last edited by Fr David Straut; 10/23/13 09:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
I am personally bewildered by the fact that since Vatican II Roman Catholic deacons perform marriages.

Father, neither the priest nor deacon perform the marriage. In Roman theology the bride and groom are the officiants of the Sacrament and confer it on one another.

However the presence of a witness for the Church is needed, and this is the function of the presence of a priest or deacon.

Technically, Joe and Mary could stand at the altar rails (remember them?)and say "I take you..." and "I take you..." A no-frills but valid sacrament has just taken place. Fr MacGillicuddy could be standing off to the side as a witness.

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Question: If the bride and groom do not consummate the marriage it may be annulled and on the fast track.

Without being salacious, it would seem that Catholics see, not the exchange of vows, but the physical consummation as the essential "matter" and "form" of the sacrament?

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In reality, and let's be realistic, the "consummation" part now takes place long before the "vows" part! Even is strict "catholic" countries. Who actually remains chaste these days until after the "vows"????

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Bergschlawiner: There are still some of us out there.
I am 33, was married at 25, and my wife and I both waited... I know many other cases as well. By no means a majority, but still around!

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Father, neither the priest nor deacon perform the marriage. In Roman theology the bride and groom are the officiants of the Sacrament and confer it on one another.

However the presence of a witness for the Church is needed, and this is the function of the presence of a priest or deacon.


It is for this reason that a "mixed marriage" between a Latin and Eastern Catholic, even if celebrated in the Latin rite, must be witnessed by a presbyter and not by a deacon.

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Without being salacious, it would seem that Catholics see, not the exchange of vows, but the physical consummation as the essential "matter" and "form" of the sacrament?


No, it's the consent.

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Confimation now being delayed until late adolescence


Father David:

Father bless!!

My daughter was just asked to be a sponsor for the confirmation of her brother-in-law who had never been confirmed. This will happen at Pentecost 2014. He's 23. I asked why he'd not been confirmed before and she said that she doubted that any of his siblings, including her husband, had ever been confirmed. So I asked my pastor how a person could be married in the Church without being confirmed--I'd been taught in high school, 45 years ago, that it was necessary--and his reply was that Confirmation is only "recommended." Color me shocked about the attitude toward this Mystery.

Bob

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Father Ambrose,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

You are correct when stating in Roman theology the bride and groom are the ministers of the Sacrament, and that the priest/deacon has the function of witness.

Additionally, the theology requires a nuptial blessing, which of course, the priest has faculties for. Now since Latin deacon also have been given faculties to give the nuptial blessing, and of course they can be witness, Latin marriages can be celebrated by a deacon without a priest.

Of course Eastern deacons never have faculties for blessings or conferring Sacraments. Deacons simply assist the priest/bishop.

My prayers are with you,

Deacon El


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I'm sure that this has been answered before so I apologize in advance.

How does the Eastern Catholic "sui juris" theology of Marriage comport with that of the Church of Rome?

I can intellectualize annulments under Roman sacramental theology, although I consider the process as sophistic and spiritually harmful on a number of levels. (In plain words, from the Orthodox perspective,it's a construct designed to acknowledge divorce and failed marriages without looking in a mirror and calling a spade a spade.)

How can Eastern Catholic sacramental theology fit into the process? Isn't it akin to the proverbial square peg/round hole dilemma?




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CDF confirms Church ban on Communion for divorced/remarried

CWN – October 22, 2013

In a lengthy statement published in L’Osservatore Romano, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) has strongly affirmed the Church’s teaching that Catholics who are divorced and remarried may not receive Communion.

Following the announcement that an extraordinary meeting of the Synod of Bishops will be held in 2014 to discuss pastoral care for families, there has been widespread speculation that the Synod might make a change in the Church’s rule withholding Communion from Catholics who are divorced and remarried. But in a statement made public on October 22, Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller observed that the Church’s teaching is not subject to change.

L’Osservatore Romano published the “extensive contribution” by Archbishop Müller in its entirety, giving unusual prominence to the statement. The Vatican newspaper explained that public question on “this pressing subject” called for explanation of the Church’s stand.

Archbishop Müller, too, acknowledged the keen interest in the topic. He said at the start of his statement that the “increasing number of persons affected in countries of ancient Christian tradition” had made the pastoral care for Catholics who are divorced and remarried a matter of urgent pastoral priority.

The CDF leader observed that both Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have called for new efforts to provide spiritual support for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. However, he said, “the care of remarried divorcees must not be reduced to the question of receiving the Eucharist.”

Archbishop Müller insisted that the care for divorced/remarried Catholics “must be explored in a manner that is consistent with Catholic doctrine on marriage.” He noted that the Church has clearly and consistently taught that the bond of Christian marriage is indissoluble. “It designates a reality that comes from God and is therefore no longer at man’s disposal,” the CDF prefect wrote.

Examining the issue in light of Scripture and Tradition, the archbishop explains that unless a marriage has been found to be null by an ecclesiastical tribunal, divorced and remarried Catholics are obliged to refrain from receiving Communion. The single exception allowed by pastoral practice, he said, comes when a 2nd marital union cannot be ended (perhaps for the sake of children), and the partners make a commitment to live as brother and sister.

Archbishop Müller explicitly rejected the suggestion that divorced/remarried Catholics should make their own decision on whether they should receive Communion. That argument, he noted, “based on a problematical concept of ‘conscience,’ was rejected by a document of the CDF in 1994.” Similarly he rejected the policies of Orthodox churches allowing for divorce in some cases. “This practice cannot be reconciled with God’s will, as expressed unambiguously in Jesus’ sayings about the indissolubility of marriage,” he wrote. Throughout his statement Archbishop Müller strongly emphasized the Christian understanding of marriage as a sacrament. “If marriage is secularized or regarded as a purely natural reality, its sacrament character is obscured,” he remarked.

The archbishop did offer one argument that might be pursued by the 2014 Synod, suggesting that many Christians are not entering into valid sacramental marriages. He explained:


Today’s mentality is largely opposed to the Christian understanding of marriage, with regard to its indissolubility and its openness to children. Because many Christians are influenced by this, marriages nowadays are probably invalid more often than they were previously, because there is a lack of desire for marriage in accordance with Catholic teaching, and there is too little socialization within an environment of faith. Therefore assessment of the validity of marriage is important and can help to solve problems.

Additional sources for this story: The Power of Grace (L’Osservatore Romano) www.osservatoreromano.va/portal/dt?JSPTabContainer.setSelected=JSPTabContainer%2FDetail&last=false=&path=/news/cultura/2013/243q13-Sull-indissolubilit–del-matrimonio-e-il-di.html&title=The%20Power%20of%20Grace&locale=en

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Funny how these dust ups occur around the time of the North American Catholic Orthodox Diolouge.(taking place in Toronto this week.) Last spring, 2012, it was the celibacy argument, this time divorce.

One thing it shows us Orthodox - your pope is not the absolute monarch that some within both your Church and mine envision him to be.

Oh well....

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Originally Posted by DMD
Funny how these dust ups occur around the time of the North American Catholic Orthodox Diolouge.(taking place in Toronto this week.) Last spring, 2012, it was the celibacy argument, this time divorce.

One thing it shows us Orthodox - your pope is not the absolute monarch that some within both your Church and mine envision him to be.
This disjunct in Catholic theology gives me hope :-) If a deacon officiates at the marriage of two Roman Catholics sacramental grace occurs. But if one of them is an Eastern Catholic - no marriage is created, no sacramental grace occurs.

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Originally Posted by Tomassus
Today’s mentality is largely opposed to the Christian understanding of marriage, with regard to its indissolubility and its openness to children. Because many Christians are influenced by this, marriages nowadays are probably invalid more often than they were previously, because there is a lack of desire for marriage in accordance with Catholic teaching, and there is too little socialization within an environment of faith. Therefore assessment of the validity of marriage is important and can help to solve problems.
Doesn't this open the door to an avalanche of annulment applications at the Marriage Tribunals? Any woman who has fallen in love with her tennis instructor can "annul" her paunchy taxi driver husband by claiming insufficient understanding of the nature of marriage on her wedding day.

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How does the Eastern Catholic "sui juris" theology of Marriage comport with that of the Church of Rome?


Badly.

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