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A Question on Holy Thursday #402549 01/05/14 08:37 PM
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I am working on a paper for the seminary and one of the questions involves prayers for the morning of Holy Thursday. As I was doing my research, I found that there is a Bridegroom Matins available for Thursday, however, it is not specified in our Typicon.

The site where I found the Bridegroom Matins is a Greek Orthodox site, obviously a difference from my own Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parish. The Orthodox site states that the Thursday Bridegroom Matins can be done on Wednesday night.

So...........

1. Is this something that could be done in a Ruthenian parish?

2. What is the normal prayer(s) done on Holy Thursday for Matins?

3. Any links to sites which might be able to help me with this?

Thank you.

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402550 01/05/14 10:39 PM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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I think the confusion comes from the practice of flipping everything in Holy Week so that Presanctified is done in the Morning and Bridegroom Matins in Evening Mon-Wed, Holy Thursday Vesperal Liturgy on Thurs morning, Good Friday Matin on Thurs evening. I think in general this practice has stopped. So most do Bridegroom Matins in the morning, Presanctified in the evening, etc.
I have an older Typicon by Fr David Petras that prescribes Matin Holy Thursday morning but not the Bridegroom troparia but the troparia "The glorius disciples were illumined..."

It follows this order exactly:
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWThu-M.htm


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Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402551 01/05/14 10:50 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean by "not specified in our Typikon"; the order for the service is given on p. 29 of Fr. David Petras' annual typikon for 2014.

At this Matins, we DO sing the svitilen (Hymn of Light) "I see your bridal chamber...", but the troparion "Behold the Bridegroom comes..." is replaced with the hymn for Holy Thursday, "The glorious disciples were enlightened..." So it's a mixed call whether to count it as "Bridegroom Matins" or not; it is really more focused on the Mystery of the Eucharist than on the end times.

You can find the proper hymns of the service in the Lenten Triodion of Mother Mary and Kallistos Ware, or in the Lenten Triodion of the Sisters of Saint Basil the Great. Fr. David's typikon provides the page numbers (at the top of the entry for Great and Holy Thursday). In either case, you need to know the general order of Matins to see where the hymns go.

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #402552 01/05/14 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I think the confusion comes from the practice of flipping everything in Holy Week so that Presanctified is done in the Morning and Bridegroom Matins in Evening Mon-Wed, Holy Thursday Vesperal Liturgy on Thurs morning, Good Friday Matin on Thurs evening. I think in general this practice has stopped. So most do Bridegroom Matins in the morning, Presanctified in the evening, etc.
I have an older Typicon by Fr David Petras that prescribes Matin Holy Thursday morning but not the Bridegroom troparia but the troparia "The glorius disciples were illumined..."

It follows this order exactly:
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/HWThu-M.htm


Okay. Trying to understand all this. Of all the things that I have to know regarding our various praxis, the prayers, typica, kontakion, etc. are by far the worst for me.

The link you gave me. Is it applicable to the Ruthenian Church?

You say there are no Bridegroom troparia, so is this prayer the prayer that would be permissible to recite on Thursday morning? Remember, I am not doing monastic hours. I am doing cathedral hours.

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402553 01/05/14 11:23 PM
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Yes the order in Fr Davids Typicon an the order on the website match up.


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Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #402555 01/05/14 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Yes the order in Fr Davids Typicon an the order on the website match up.


I have to be sure! I'm doing this paper for Fr. David!

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402556 01/05/14 11:47 PM
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Well, this is entirely different than the one I found on the Internet.

Here's the opening of the Bridegroom Matins which I found:

CANTICLE ONE:

IRMOS: AT A STROKE THE RED SEA WAS PARTED IN TWO,
THE SWELLING DEPTHS DRIED UP:
A PATH FOR THOSE UNARMED,
A GRAVE FOR THOSE IN FULL ARRAY.
A SONG BEFITTING GOD WAS SUNG,
FOR GLORIOUSLY HAS CHRIST OUR GOD BEEN GLORIFIED!

GLORY TO YOU, OUR GOD GLORY TO YOU!

Cause of all and Giver of life,
the infinite Wisdom of God
has built a house from a pure, unwedded mother!
For clothed in the temple of His body,
gloriously has Christ our God been glorified!

Initiating His friends into the mystery,
the true Wisdom of God
has set a table that nourishes the soul,
and has mixed a cup of immortality for the faithful.
Let us draw near with reverence and cry out:
Gloriously has Christ our God been glorified!

Let us the faithful all listen
as the uncreated and innate Wisdom of God calls out with a loud voice.
For He cries: Taste, and knowing that I am God, exclaim:
Gloriously has Christ our God been glorified!

KATAVASIA: (the irmos is repeated throughout as katavasia)

HOLY THURSDAY: THE CANON

CANTICLE THREE

IRMOS: THE LORD AND CREATOR OF ALL, THE CHANGELESS GOD,
DESCENDED TO UNITE THE CREATURE TO HIMSELF.
NOW AS THE PASSOVER HE OFFERS HIMSELF
TO THOSE FOR WHOM HE IS ABOUT TO DIE,
CRYING: EAT MY BODY AND BE CONFIRMED IN FAITH!

GLORY TO YOU, OUR GOD, GLORY TO YOU...

You filled Your cup of gladness,
which redeems all the race of men,
and gave it to Your disciples to drink, Good One.
You offered Yourself, crying:
Drink my blood and be confirmed in faith

Foolish is the man among you who is a betrayer,
foretold the patient One to His disciples.
He shall not know these things, and being without understanding, he shall not understand.
Yet abide in Me and be confirmed in faith.

I'm sure you see the difference. What is this thing? It says Bridegroom Matins for Holy Thursday

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402557 01/06/14 12:06 AM
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I'm not sure what you're comparing, but they certainly match up except for translations. The texts you gave above are all from the middle of Matins for Great and Holy Thursday.

The following web pages might help:

The Order of Matins (Holy Thursday is daily Matins plus a Gospel reading)

What is a canon?


Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402570 01/06/14 05:18 PM
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What was the question for the paper specifically?


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Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402579 01/06/14 08:39 PM
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During Eastern Orthodox Holy Week all the services are shifted forward so that most of them are done in the evening. The Bridegroom Services, the 12 Passion Gospels on Holy Thursday evening and the Lamentations Service on Holy Friday evening are all forms of Matins, which must have originally been served in the morning. On the other hand the Divine Liturgies of Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday morning are Vesperal Liturgies, which must have originally been done in the evening when one does Vespers.

Fr. John W. Morris

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #402581 01/06/14 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
What was the question for the paper specifically?


The question is: n "As a faithful Christian, you also want to pray all the mornings of Holy Week. Your assignment for this course is to present the office of prayer you pray privately on Holy Thursday morning."

Right now, I am leaning strongly to presenting the office which was linked to me, which is a Bridegroom Matins.

I'm still confused.

(I was at Holy Trinity Monastery in 2008 during Lent and Holy Week. I was discerning God's will for my life. During that time, I remember that once in a rare while, during the praying of the prayers from the Lenten Triodion, Fr. Abbott Leo and Brother Michael would look at each other and say "Okay. Where are we now?" Byzantine prayers are beautiful -- and maddening!)

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #402585 01/06/14 10:50 PM
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I think Fr. David is not looking for you to present every iota of a service pulled from an horologion but what you would assemble from it for your private prayer. I would think he would be looking for you to eliminate elements that don't make sense to take privately.


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Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Fr. John Morris] #403325 02/07/14 03:11 PM
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Fr. Al Offline
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Fr., I recognize your name from another forum. Since many Orthodox parishes do the Unction service Holy Wednesday evening, Holy Thursday Matins is often simply not served. In two of the Russian parishes I served and in the Serbian parish I now serve, I did the Matins Thursday morning before the Vesperal Liturgy of St. Basil. True, this makes for a long day, since Matins must be celebrated again that evening with the 12 Passion Gospels.

Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Fr. Al] #403479 02/17/14 03:06 PM
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I've generally seen the Greeks serve the unction service in the morning or afternoon of Great and Holy Wednesday. They don't like skipping Orthros in the evenings of Holy Week.


Re: A Question on Holy Thursday [Re: Irish_Ruthenian] #403480 02/17/14 03:21 PM
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Irish Ruthenian,

I think you are getting all hung up on terminology. "Bridegroom" Matins on Wednesday evening/Thursday morning is just matins for Great and Holy Thursday. All the Bridgroom Matins services is just Matins. The only thing unusual is the fact there there is a Small Doxology in spite of there being stichera at the Praises. Oh, and Great and Holy Thursday begins the suppression of the Kathismata. If it were my assignment, the service would probably look like a reader's version of Orthros, with no repetition in the troparia of the canon (full rubrics: Irmos 2x, troparia repeated to make 12, for a total of 14). But, I am a total liturgical geek like that, and i have a Triodion to boot. So my solution may not be the best for someone who may have more time constraints.

In Christ,
Adam


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