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News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church #403410 02/13/14 07:13 AM
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It was announced today in Kyiv and Rome that Bishop Vasyl Ivasyuk is to be the new Bishop of Kolomyia-Chernivtsi. He leaves the office of Archiepiscopal Exarch of Odesa-Krym.

At the same time the Exarchate of Odesa-Krym is divided in two. Redemptorist Father Mykhaylo Bubniy has been chosen as the first Archiepiscopal Exarch of Krym (Crimea) and titular Bishop of Thubursicum-Bure.

There is no news about who will be the first Archiepiscopal Exarch of Odesa.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Latin Catholic] #403414 02/13/14 11:47 AM
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Is there any real need for a Greek Catholic see in Odessa? Isn't that a predominately historical Russian area placed in Ukraine by the Soviets and geographically far removed from the heartlands of the UGCC? For allegedly not wishing to provoke the Orthodox and hoping to arrange a meeting between +Kyrill and Pope Francis , Rome sends out mixed signals at best. Neither the RCC nor the Orthodox really seem to practice what they preach in terms of ecumenical dialogue and symbolic acts versus realtime behavior. (Of course our Orthodox house is currently in some disarray so who knows...)

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403416 02/13/14 01:38 PM
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I guess the Synod of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church thinks it is necessary to provide pastoral care for the Greek-Catholic faithful who live in Odessa and Crimea, especially since they are a minority.

The same is presumably true of the Russian Orthodox eparchies in Berlin, Brussels, Budapest, Buenos Aires, the Hague, Paris, London and Vienna.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Latin Catholic] #403417 02/13/14 02:37 PM
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Any takers with an Eastern Catholic pov? The history of the Union of Brest, Ukraine and the Russian bear is not directly analogous to the Orthodox or Eastern Catholc faithful in the diaspora.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403418 02/13/14 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Is there any real need for a Greek Catholic see in Odessa? Isn't that a predominately historical Russian area placed in Ukraine by the Soviets and geographically far removed from the heartlands of the UGCC? For allegedly not wishing to provoke the Orthodox and hoping to arrange a meeting between +Kyrill and Pope Francis , Rome sends out mixed signals at best. Neither the RCC nor the Orthodox really seem to practice what they preach in terms of ecumenical dialogue and symbolic acts versus realtime behavior. (Of course our Orthodox house is currently in some disarray so who knows...)


But you know, of course, DMD, that Rome will not be responsible for the creation of the see. It will be the Holy Synod of the UGCC. So I suppose Rome could say, quite legitimately, that its nose is clean on this one.

It is pretty clear when you are in Ukraine that the UGCC is engaged in a vigorous and active ministry across the country, so I would expect that the purpose in establishing this see is to support, and give structure to, the genuine Christian work going on there.

EDIT: I could say more, but I fear it would come across as polemical, and really, I think that the pattern of Patriarch Svyatoslav has not been polemical to date, so there is good reason to assume the best on this question.

Last edited by Slavophile; 02/13/14 02:50 PM.
Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Slavophile] #403420 02/13/14 04:27 PM
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I thought as much. Therein lies the rub. Did Rome or did Rome not reach understandings with the Orthodox regarding the legitimacy of the Greek Catholic Church in the 1990's which led to a significant lessening of tensions? The Orthodox took those representations from the Holy See to mean that that UGCC would not seek to expand its traditional, historical jurisdiction beyond western Ukraine and to minister to its flock in the diaspora(and please don't humor me with the argument that for a period of time in the 17th century Kiev was Greek Catholic. We can play that game and swap maps and archane historical documents until we are blue in the face and really angry with each other while accomplishing nothing.) Despite what the Orthodox took as Rome's word, the UGCC has shown a tendency to act as if it were an independent, autochephalous national Orthodox Church and essentially ignore the Holy See when it sees fit and to run to it when it seems to need her assistance.I also realize that these actions put the UGCC representatives on the Ecumenical Dialogues with us in a really tough position, they probably do not support what the central office in Ukraine is doing, but they are in a difficult position. Look, people who think as I do are about as sympathetic and understanding of the Eastern Catholic world as you are going to get within Orthodoxy. But, if we (otherwise sympathetic Orthodox) begin to view the actions of the UGCC with a jaundiced eye, there really is a problem - as least as I see it. Frankly, in the eyes of both Rome and Moscow, I suspect the Ukrainians are what they always have been - a pawn caught between east and west. Perhaps I am overreacting.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403421 02/13/14 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Is there any real need for a Greek Catholic see in Odessa? Isn't that a predominately historical Russian area placed in Ukraine by the Soviets and geographically far removed from the heartlands of the UGCC? For allegedly not wishing to provoke the Orthodox and hoping to arrange a meeting between +Kyrill and Pope Francis , Rome sends out mixed signals at best. Neither the RCC nor the Orthodox really seem to practice what they preach in terms of ecumenical dialogue and symbolic acts versus realtime behavior. (Of course our Orthodox house is currently in some disarray so who knows...)

Yes. The Exarchate of Odessa-Krym has 93,000 faithful and 110 parishes. I think it is reasonable to split. The UGCC has 9 eparchies/exarchies in the west, 2 in the central, and 1 in the east. I don't think 13 eparchies for the UGCC in Ukraine is excessive for 4.5 million faithful.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403422 02/13/14 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
I thought as much.... Look, people who think as I do are about as sympathetic and understanding of the Eastern Catholic world as you are going to get within Orthodoxy. But, if we (otherwise sympathetic Orthodox) begin to view the actions of the UGCC with a jaundiced eye, there really is a problem - as least as I see it. Frankly, in the eyes of both Rome and Moscow, I suspect the Ukrainians are what they always have been - a pawn caught between east and west. Perhaps I am overreacting.


No, I think you raise legitimate concerns, but I also think like Fr Deacon Lance, that there is likely to be genuine pastoral concern in this instance.

That said, my experience over there suggests that, much to the dismay of many folk of goodwill - Orthodox and Greek-Catholic alike - the UOC-MP is not holding its own, pastorally-speaking, and while that particular jurisdiction plays games, there are souls to take care of.

I hope that doesn't sound argumentative; I am only trying to describe what I have both observed myself, and heard from others who know better.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Slavophile] #403423 02/13/14 05:16 PM
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The UGCC is reaching out to Ukrainian Greek Catholics residing in the Crimean regions. So, that's a problem?

Sounds like the ROs are basically saying: "We're all for evangelization, but you UECs stay out of my town - our evangelization is better than yours".

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Latin Catholic] #403424 02/13/14 08:27 PM
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For comparison Ukraine and Texas are roughly the same geographic size and Catholic population. Texas has 15 diocese. The UGCC now has 13.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #403430 02/14/14 09:59 AM
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But everything in Texas is supposedly bigger. LOL

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Pavloosh] #403431 02/14/14 10:12 AM
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That's not a reasonable comparison, Ukraine has a bigger population and a smaller area than Texas, and Catholics in Texas are the largest religious group there, something not true in Ukraine even combining Roman and Greek Catholics.

By that logic there should be as many Orthodox ordinaries in America as there are Roman Catholics - a good way to bankrupt us.

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403435 02/14/14 11:37 AM
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"By that logic there should be as many Orthodox ordinaries in America as there are Roman Catholics - a good way to bankrupt us."
Ouch - that's a low blow!

Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: Pavloosh] #403436 02/14/14 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Pavloosh
"By that logic there should be as many Orthodox ordinaries in America as there are Roman Catholics - a good way to bankrupt us."
Ouch - that's a low blow!


Actually, as I think about it, we Orthodox are doing a good job of that without any help from the outside!

Seriously, if the population of Greek Catholics in the eastern Ukraine is a product of demographic shifts and populations moving east, that is one thing. I don't really know enough about the situation on the ground there to have a valid opinion. But if it is establishing sees for the purpose of simply establishing sees, that is a problem.

If the UGCC did a better job of communicating their rationale for such actions, they would be less likely to provoke a reflexive response from all Orthodox - some (like their counterparts in your communion) will always instinctively react, but many of us will think the issue through.

I was advised that there are approximately 95,000 Greek Catholics in the Odessa region, if this is so that is comparable to the largest of the Greek Metropolises in the USA and about the same size as the UOCUSA. So I can see the point, but an explanation would have avoided a predictable reaction.

What we have here (and what we have had for centuries) is a failure to communicate. (And neither side can always handle the truth to carry the movie analogy a step further.)


Re: News from the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church [Re: DMD] #403439 02/14/14 03:03 PM
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Actually, if I may interject for a moment, what is missing from this discussion is a couple of factors.

First of all, why are the Orthodox upset by any of this? Is the UGCC not allowed to establish itself in other areas of Ukraine? What is the UOC-MP and the MP afraid of? That members of their flock will go over to Eastern Catholicism?

The question that really should be asked is why is Orthodoxy in this region so authoritarian and anti-democratic?

Secondly, the non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox (those free of the geopolitical control of the MP) and the UGCC have never been on better terms.

I've personally contributed to the building of a church which will be shared by both the UGCC and the UOC-KP. I've contributed to the publishing of a Ukrainian-language liturgical text which is now being used in UOC-KP parishes. I'm in correspondence with UOC-KP people and collaborate with them on social service projects.

At no time have any of these non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox ever disparage me because I'm UGCC. They actually accept me just as I am and I'm pleased to be associated with them etc.

This is a struggle between the Vatican and the MP. It has no real bearing on the kind of ecumenical relations that are going on "on the ground" in Ukraine itself.

The idea that Ukraine is a "territory" of the MP (which is what this comes down to) is nonsense.

That Rome buys into that for ecumenical reasons and Moscow promulgates it for geopolitical reasons is disgraceful.

In any case, it has nothing to do with us (meaning both Ukrainian Greek-Catholics and Orthodox).

In the eyes of "Orthodoxy," EC's in Ukraine are illegitimate (spawned by Vatican conspiracy,, no doubt). And the KP is uncanonical and therefore non-existent.

So nothing has changed in 500 years.

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 02/14/14 03:09 PM.
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