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Is this a Vagante #403667
02/26/14 01:14 PM
02/26/14 01:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Florida, USA
LibCath2000 Offline OP
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Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403669
02/26/14 01:16 PM
02/26/14 01:16 PM
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Florida, USA
LibCath2000 Offline OP
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Sorry all - I must have selected post topic before I even finished writing the post title.

But in fact I was trying to figure out if this was/is an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox mission or some kind of front operation.

Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403670
02/26/14 01:38 PM
02/26/14 01:38 PM
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Mark R Offline
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The parish history has OCA content, but if you read Who Are We on the site it mentions being an eastern rite mission of some western rite catholic outfit.

Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403671
02/26/14 01:44 PM
02/26/14 01:44 PM
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Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: Michael_Thoma] #403676
02/26/14 05:10 PM
02/26/14 05:10 PM
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They sort of sound like what the old timers loyal to Rome would call "indy pindy." Really so...

Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403730
02/28/14 02:38 AM
02/28/14 02:38 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline
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My time is limited tonight but I'll weigh in on these folks over the weekend. Neither Michael's nor David's assessments are far off the mark. The quick and short answer is that they are neither EC nor canonical EO.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403786
03/01/14 08:19 PM
03/01/14 08:19 PM
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Firstly, let me say that, although I've been aware of this group for some time, I know very little detail about them or their hierarch, compared to the multitude of other vagante about whom I've posted over the years.* Until the appearance of their website (thank you, LC, for posting the link), they've been pretty low-key.

The website itself is telling in many (virtually all) respects and is absolutely confirmatory as to the status of the ecclesia in relation to both mainstream (canonical) Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Let's start from the homepage.

I've never, until now, encountered any single church/cathedral/mission (even among the hard-core vagante) that styled itself as sui iuris. They've been around for a while - since 1960, according to them.

However, the photos - both those on the home page and those on the history page - are not of their temple! They are pictures of St Mary' s Romanian Orthodox Cathedral (OCA) in Cleveland - the original cathedral and the current one. To see the real mission, look here.

The hierarchy page has a nice ecumenical touch in the person of Bl Teresa of Calcutta's photo. More interesting, however, are the other photos. Archbishop Visarion, of blessed memory, was a Romanian Orthodox hierarch who fled to the West in the mid-40s, fearing Communist persecution and was later deposed by the Romanian Synod under Communist demand. He spent a decade or so in France, under ROCOR's canonical omophor, heading up the exiled Romanian Orthodox community, subsequently retiring to a monastery where he reposed a decade later (mid-1960s). There's nothing to suggest that he ever visited the US. However, I suppose that one can't rule out the possibility that some of his dispersed clergy weren't later involved with this entity - there's no real indication why he's termed their 'patron'.

Note, too, the photo of Patriarch Daniel, though they make no explicit claim of obedience to him, nor to either of the US Romanian Orthodox hierarchy - ROAAC or ROEA (OCA).

'Bishop' Markuz Muresan apparently founded the mission in 1960 - which was mid-point between Archbishop Visarion's stepping down from his post in France and his repose. So, it's possible that he traces back to the Archbishop's clergy there - but that's only supposition. I can't find anything to suggest that the Archbishop ordained anyone to the episcopate nor any record of Bishop Markuz' episcopal ordination by any of the usual suspects among the vagante episcopi, so his episcopal genealogy remains unclear and he may be self-ordained to the title.

The history, as Mark notes, alludes to OCA connections - Bishop Nathaniel of the OCA's Romanian jurisdiction is referenced, as are parishes of the OCA's RO episcopate. It's possible that some of the mission's congregation are snowbird refugees from the Rust Belt parishes mentioned but, you'll note that nowhere is there any explicit indication as to how the history ties into the mission itself. And the mission is located in a rough section of town, where I don't see a lot of snowbirds likely to be regular attendees.

Surprise!!! It's the history of St Mary's RO (OCA) Cathedral in Cleveland. Even the photo on the 'Worship' page is that of the current rector of St Mary's in Cleveland and taken from the latter's site!

Can you say chutzpah?

The other clergy listed on the 'Hierarchy' page are all members of something called 'The Missionaries of Charity - Fathers Congregation'. (You can learn more about them at http://www.mccharity.org/.) Please, note that these should not be confused with the Missionaries of Charity Fathers - the priestly congregation founded by Bl Mother Teresa of Calcutta - though these folks would like you to confuse them with the latter.

In viewing that list of clergy, btw, you'll discover that several are also designated as being 'diplomats' - associated with The American Diplomatic Mission of International Relations (ADMIR) and one lists www.vatican.va as his website address.

As I've described in past postings on vagante, this is a classic example of how bodies such as the mission not-always-subtly intersperse photos and text on their sites that suggest validity, canonicity, and that they are part and parcel of the mainstream.

To their credit, if it's accurate, they do supposedly operate Mother Teresa Home for Women in Distress - an emergency shelter - and a soup kitchen for homeless men, both at the same address as the mission. But, honestly, given the rest of this, I'd want to have proof before I'd hang my hat on that.

To answer the question simply, in my opinion, these folk are vagante of the first order.

Many years,

Neil

^I now know more about them that I could ever have wanted to know shocked


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403791
03/02/14 02:59 AM
03/02/14 02:59 AM
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OH MY WORD !

What a wonderful bit of research - thanks Neil.

I just saw the words Orthodox and Catholic used together in their descriptor and that was enough for me frown

Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403792
03/02/14 06:04 AM
03/02/14 06:04 AM
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Thanks, Anhelyna, but - because they were so blatant, it took relatively little time. The hierarchs took only a glance and, when I glanced at the clergy and their 'order', it was immediately obvious that they were trying to create a Bl Mother Teresa connection that didn't exist.

I read the history and decided that I needed to reverse read and see if 'Bishop' Muresan had any prior history with St Mary's in Cleveland. Once I went to the Cathedral site, the stack of cards came crashing down. Took longer to write than to unravel.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403830
03/03/14 09:18 AM
03/03/14 09:18 AM
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LibCath2000 Offline OP
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Neil,

Thank you for doing the research and finding out more about these people.

The location is NOT run, owned or operated by them. It is actually a homeless shelter/soup kitchen and home of the Missionaries of Charity.

My guess is that they promote their site elsewhere - where these facts might not as easily be checked.

Last edited by LibCath2000; 03/03/14 09:19 AM. Reason: typo
Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403918
03/06/14 02:11 AM
03/06/14 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000
Thank you for doing the research and finding out more about these people.

The location is NOT run, owned or operated by them. It is actually a homeless shelter/soup kitchen and home of the Missionaries of Charity.

My guess is that they promote their site elsewhere - where these facts might not as easily be checked.


LC,

Not a problem - always glad to have the opportunity to add to my collection of info on vagantes, so that I can knowledgeably warn folks away from them.

Thanks for that bit of info on the shelter/soup kitchen. They really are masters of chutzpah!

I called the history and photos lifted from St Mary's Cathedral site to the attention of the Cathedral's rector. If he follows up on my email, it will be interesting to see if their website changes.

Many years,

Neil

ADDENDUM
Quote
it will be interesting to see if their website changes.


Guess who's site is down for
Quote
Maintenance

http://www.romanianmission.org/!!! grin

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 03/06/14 02:16 AM. Reason: Addendum

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Is this a Vagante [Re: LibCath2000] #403919
03/06/14 02:52 AM
03/06/14 02:52 AM
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Mark R Offline
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Excellent analysis...I try not to bother too much with these groups anymore. I have seen the old switcheroo business described above before re. the Charismatic Catholic Church. I guess "Romania" is way more under the radar than associating with Greeks, Ukrainians and Russians.


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