www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy Gender Neutral Revised Ruthenian Funeral

My priest is screaming about the "Gender Neutral Revised Ruthenian Funeral".

He said it 10 times worse than the teal terror.

Did they actually promulgate it?

Everyone knows the current one. No need to change it. I just to get why the bishops think our liturgy is awful that it needs revision.

I know neither what the previous Ruthenian funeral was worded nor the present one.

However, if the sense of the original text is gender inclusive, why not so render it in English?

Not the bishops, just one or two priests who have the bishops bamboozled. I've seen it, by the way, and it is truly, truly atrocious. In its efforts to avoid using the third person male pronouns, it ties itself into syntactical knots, and the results are not only awful, turgid English, but also tend to invert the original meaning of the sentences.

One wonders if a certain well-known Presbyter is losing his facility to speak English, never mind Slavonic.

\\In its efforts to avoid using the third person male pronouns, it ties itself into syntactical knots, and the results are not only awful, turgid English, but also tend to invert the original meaning of the sentences.\\

That might well be so.

What would be the problem of putting "he", "him", and "his" into italics, and allowing the Priest to alter to the feminine pronouns, or even plural, as needed?

Obviously, the deceased would be of one sex or the other.

For the Love of God, why is this "inclusive" wording happening to you guys now. I pray that you may be very successful in preventing "inclusive" language to enter you Divine Liturgies. Just say "NO" to your bishops, if you have the chance; but I am sure you are already doing this.

Language about humans is one thing, language about God is quite another.

May we always bless God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and His kingdom.

I write that as a refugee from a faith community in which the language of Scripture became optional, and not the preferred option.

It's already done and promulgated for the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholics. Pray that it can be revised again some day....properly.

My deepest sympathies to you and the Ruthenians. It was the Ruthenians that first introduced me to the Eastern Catholic Churches; thus, I have a great love for them and such a great example of holiness in them. I am hopeful that this change will be short-lived, as Eastern Catholics love tradition sometimes better than the West, to the point of challenging authority.

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal

I thought something might be up because of the subtle and unwanted changes in the new Liturgy book printed a few years ago, like the substitution of "for He is good and loves us all" for "He is gracious and loves mankind" (My priest at that time refused to say the new formula.) It's a dumbing down. But gender neutral is worse-it's passe, it went out with the 1970s, and was never a good idea. It is not proper English, for starters.

They think modern people, especially young people, need things made simpler. Elitism. There are probably only one or two career liturgists behind all of this, needing something to do.

Latinization, right? Bugnini-ism. Perpetual novelty. Let's hope they don't dare do this to the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom!

Next they/ll put a table in front of the Iconostasis!!

Would they refer to God as He/She or It?

Sometimes the Greek IS inclusive.

The Epistle in Greek is usually prefaced with ADELFOI--which is the vocative plural for brother, sister, or any combination of both.

Greek and Slavonic carefully distinguish between ANIR/MUZH (gender specific male) and ANTHROPOS/CHELLOVEK (human being). This is reflected in Latin's VIR and HOMO.

FWIW, the Greek version of the Nicene Creed says that the Logos, "for us ANTHROPOI and our salvation, came down from heaven and ENANTHROPOIZANTA." Slavonic uses the equivalent terms.

In the Dismissal, Our Savior is called "PHILANTHROPOS."

I have no problem with "mankind" being used as the equivalent of ANTHROPOS. "Humankind" I find awkward to sing.

Thanks. But I left the Ruthenians for the Holy Orthodox Church about seven years ago.

You have summarized some of the key points that have been raised numerous times on this forum for probably around the last 10 years. You are, as the saying goes, preaching to the choir, or at least a very concerned and dismayed portion of it; see e.g. link and link .

But don't get me wrong, keep preaching, we just need to get the clergy, not just the choir, listening (and agreeing). It's a matter of sound scholarship, objectivity and orthodox theology.

For clarity, I re-post here a portion of one of the links above where the Greek text may not appear correctly in the link.

If I have to choose one I will always choose byzantinization over latinizization, because in these days latinization has evolved in order to include something that is bordering on heresy. At the very least it includes things that tend to be able to more easily "inculcate heresy" if not precisely heretical.

Intentionally distorting the meaning of sacred texts to suit what you are comfortable with hearing , not with what God is hearing is similar to what protestants did in some of their bible translations to justify their heresies.

Well, I tend to avoid the carpatho-rus church these days..but I am glad enough people care to complain about this matter. The Melkites, Ukrainians are not going to be adopting these practices I am certain. If they did, I'd be tempted to become Orthodox too!

Although, at least these days there is the latin mass and anglican use ordinariate churches to choose from. Perhaps as the west removes it's outdated translations and makes them improves them, it will bring back a positive influence on those eastern catholics who were influenced by 4 decades of mediocre latin church translations.

Xristoforos,

In my ignorance, I would contribute the little I can here.

The Latin saecula saeculorum, translated as "world without end" seems to me to be slightly mistranslated in some way. I say this because the phrase "servum servorum," servant of the servants (of God,) which the Pope often uses to refer to himself, does not mean that the Holy Father is just a humble servant of all (which meaning recent Popes have assumed) but it means more like the principle or first servant among all servants.

My question then would be how to translate saecula saeculorum into English more accurately, given the translations into English of the Greek, which is the older form, using the same meaning that the "servorum" refers to a more "superior" servant than servum. Maybe "ages of all ages " is most the most accurate translation from the Latin? Saecula saeculorum seems to imply that there is an age that is ultimate and of more importance than all other ages. Does this idea correspond to the meanings of the Greek and/or Slavonic form? Maybe English just doesn't have the words to express these distinctions more accurately without excessive wordiness.

I agree totally with your assessments of recent terrible translations of Latin into English. The "pro multis" is the most obvious and the most disingenuous example. Those translations do not tend toward truth or accuracy, but are politically motivated. So is gender neutral, and as such is a latinization, right?

Just my one cent. This thread is very informative for me, and ignorant Roman.

Many Years

Dear Roman Refugee:

The word "saecula" is a Nominative, Plural, Neuter, Noun, which means simply "ages." The next word "saeculorum" is a Genitive, Plural, Neuter, Noun, which simply means "of ages, or of the ages." The phrase that ends most Latin Collects is "per omnia saecula saeculorum" and simply means "through all ages of ages." Just a little help to you and I mean no offence.

As to the word ανθροπος, it does mean "man" in most Ancient Greek dictionaries. Greek has a word for woman an it is γυνη (I may have mispelled it). All I am trying to say is that we should use the more ancient translations of words. I have had to fight for the correct translation of man in my Greek classes.

God bless all of you!

Your unworthy brother in Christ;
Sean Forristal