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Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: DMD] #404563 03/26/14 10:22 PM
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Dear DMD,

I agree. But I'm only talking about the more modest issue of a Church home where unity and respect and Particular/independent identity can abound for the Ukrainian descendants of the Church of St Andrew of Kyiv.

The only one that really fits that bill is the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Alex

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #404566 03/26/14 11:19 PM
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Nelson Chase Offline
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Quote
The only one that really fits that bill is the Ukrainian Catholic Church.


I'm a Greek Catholic because I see the model of what a reunited Church can and should be in the UGCC and the other Byzantine Catholic Churches. Is it perfect, no but it is work in progress.

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404567 03/26/14 11:30 PM
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The MP presents itself as neutral (whether in praxis it is is another question) in a statement of 19 March in taking sides in the turmoil in Ukraine because both Russians and Ukrainians are under its spiritual care and perhaps thinks the UGCC should be neutral as well (which had shown to have obviously taken sides in this issue)...but I doubt they have many Russians under their care.
Russians tend to think Ukrainians are basically the same as themselves, or as I heard in church Sunday, that these two nations plus the Byelorussians are an image of the Trinity, 3 yet one. This is comforting to a half Carpatho
Russian like me, who likes all three, but has a vague sense of ethnic identity, but to the Ukrainian with a strong sense of identity it must be cacophonous.

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404569 03/27/14 12:34 AM
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Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404571 03/27/14 05:18 AM
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I find it painful that people who could otherwise agree on so much are kept separated by a certain kind of sectarianism.

Fr Andrew of 'Orthodox England' fame, is, like priests such as Fr Seraphim Rose, an undoubtedly admirable figure in many respects. In others, however, he is just plain wrong.

Fr Andrew's elevation of land as spiritual concept (as in 'Orthodox England' or 'Holy Russia') blinds him to the subtler spiritual realities of the 'gens' ('people' or 'nation'). As a result, his writings - exemplified by the article proffered by Slavipodvizhnik, above, which in this case is nothing short of blind rage against those who would assault his version of 'Holy Russia' - will never set him among those who understood 'nation'. Instead of leaving a legacy akin to that of the Venerable Bede or St Gregory of Tours, there will be a trail of tinfoil hats, interspersed with occasional words of truth.

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Mark R] #404572 03/27/14 08:04 AM
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I'm full Rusyn American, an Orthodox Christian and I don't find it comforting at a, rather I do find it irrelevant to my life as a modern American and a whole crock of _______ designed to justify 19th century Tsarist imperialism. It is a dangerous a concept, if not more so, than the Greeks and their "big idea." At least, unlike the Russians, the Greeks lack the secular means to advance their mythology.

Orthodoxy must separate itself from its fixation with nationhood or its future may well be marginalized by the end of this century in the regions of its historical strength.

Last edited by DMD; 03/27/14 08:08 AM.
Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404575 03/27/14 08:59 AM
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Was it Uniates meddling in affairs of 19th century Russia? No, it was not. Is OUTRAGE!!!

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Slavophile] #404576 03/27/14 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Slavophile
I find it painful that people who could otherwise agree on so much are kept separated by a certain kind of sectarianism.

Fr Andrew of 'Orthodox England' fame, is, like priests such as Fr Seraphim Rose, an undoubtedly admirable figure in many respects. In others, however, he is just plain wrong.

Fr Andrew's elevation of land as spiritual concept (as in 'Orthodox England' or 'Holy Russia') blinds him to the subtler spiritual realities of the 'gens' ('people' or 'nation'). As a result, his writings - exemplified by the article proffered by Slavipodvizhnik, above, which in this case is nothing short of blind rage against those who would assault his version of 'Holy Russia' - will never set him among those who understood 'nation'. Instead of leaving a legacy akin to that of the Venerable Bede or St Gregory of Tours, there will be a trail of tinfoil hats, interspersed with occasional words of truth.


Add St Seraphim of Sarov to your list. His wisdom lacks myopia and vitriol."Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved."

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404577 03/27/14 09:31 AM
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I know I can sound overly sympathetic to Russia... Bear in mind, some of the hierarchs of MP, and ROCOR are from Ukraine and do consider it home. Like DMD, I shouldn't care, but I have been too europeanized when I was younger.

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Mark R] #404587 03/27/14 05:19 PM
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What, to me, is the most fascinating part of all this is how it's become a real case study in cultural hegemony.

And it has all the classic features of such.

The perspective of hegemony is what helps me understand where things went, are now and will be going.

Alex

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: AMM] #404590 03/27/14 05:39 PM
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Dear AMM

Again, that is just my viewpoint, I'm open to change as the process develops and I don't know what people will do.

Rome would definitely be against any corporate reunion of an individual Orthodox group with it as this would do as you have said. It would have to be all of Orthodoxy or nothing, in that case.

But if individual (and non-canonical) Ukrainian Orthodox, including their hierarchs, would wish to enter the UGCC - who is going to stop them? Pope Francis? Not likely.

The fact remains that canonical Orthodoxy is no friend to the idea of a Particular, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church with its own patriarchate based in Kyiv.

They know that and I don't know how one can get around that.

The idea that the three East Slavic countries (no mention of the Carpatho-Rusyns?) are tied together like the Holy Trinity . . . that is sheer blasphemy, I would suggest. It is really shocking how anyone who claims to be an Orthodox Christian could think in those (hegemonic) terms.

In any event, there you have it.

Alex




Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #404593 03/27/14 06:28 PM
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I think it is absurdist nonsense. But then I'm American and I would tell it to anyone who suggested it , and if a Greek pitches "Megali", I'd tell them the same thing about that. People should work on their theosis and try being a better parent, sibling,neighbor or friend and quit thinking they can create the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

Last edited by DMD; 03/27/14 06:29 PM.
Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: DMD] #404599 03/27/14 09:52 PM
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Dear DMD,

You have an uncanny knack for succinctly putting volumes of argument in a nutshell!

Alex

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Tomassus] #404608 03/28/14 01:11 AM
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As the commenter who brought up the analogy of the Trinity, I am willing to submit that it is blasphemous. I considered it poetic license..one hears such analogies among Roman Catholics between the Trinity and a marriage, or with the person.
In re. to hegemonic thinking, perhaps one is most hegemonic when one is least aware of it...or as Aquinas wrote, a thing is perceived according to the mode of the perceiver.

Re: Moscow Patriarchate slams Ukrainian Catholic 'Uniates' for "meddl [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #404637 03/29/14 08:58 AM
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Alex, I was hoping someone with actual knowledge of the situation might be able to answer your questions. To be completely honest my religious world is essentially composed of my parish, and I try and stay out of what is going on behind the scenes even there. Having said that, here are my utterly speculative opinions

Quote
But if individual (and non-canonical) Ukrainian Orthodox, including their hierarchs, would wish to enter the UGCC - who is going to stop them?


In reality, they will probably stop themselves. Bear with me for a minute.

This is a highly emotional time, but I expect this is going to happen - things are going to start to settle back to normality. Russia completely unfairly seized Crimea, but that will become a new status quo. There is no justification for this, but the reality is this may be a boon for Ukraine. It loses an area not particularly Ukrainian, that would likely have been perpetually agitating for separation, and that was an economic drain on the rest of the country. That is of course not an argument justifying what happened, but it may in reality have been a blessing in disguise. The West has also come down firmly on the side of Ukraine, the EU agreement is signed, and money is going to start to flow.

I say all that to get back to your question. I don’t know what all that will mean for the churches there. But I guess the question would be in light of the political crisis, what has changed on the ground in terms of what the various groups involved in terms of the views about themselves? Does this change spark a feeling it’s time to consolidate, or does it present an opportunity for the groups involved to more strongly pursue their existing aspirations?

I think what’s working against any change or re-alignment is the fact that institutions tend to be self perpetuating and multiple and not decrease over time. The leaders of each church also have to face the reality that any significant change has the real potential to touch off internal division and dissension.

Quote
The fact remains that canonical Orthodoxy is no friend to the idea of a Particular, canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church with its own patriarchate based in Kyiv.


I am no authority on this, but I don’t think you could say that is true across the board. Hopefully somebody who knows something about the relations of the UOAC and the UOC-KP with the broader church can comment. Don’t underestimate the general desire not to disrupt the apple cart though. I think it’s safe to say the Ukrainian Churches under the Ecumenical Patriarch are certainly behind a free Autocephalous Ukrainian Church with normalized status in the Orthodox world.

Last edited by AMM; 03/29/14 08:59 AM.
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