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The rise of nationalist parties in Western Europe is not the result of resurgent fascism, anti-semitism (largely a phenomenon of the left in Europe) or "Islamophobia", but a recognition that the European Experiment, i.e., the move towards a European federation under the auspices of the European Commission, has failed. Because all the mainstream parties are heavily invested in the EU's success, the nationalist parties are the only recourse for those who want to vote for the right to be Englishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Dutchmen, Belgians, Swedes, Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese, rather than generic "Europeans".

This same phenomenon has also fostered separatist movements from Britain to Spain to Italy, because the weakening of the nation-state under the European constitution has allowed the concept of sub-national groupings based on ethnicity to become viable alternatives to the integrated nation-state. That is, in the real world, Scotland could never survive independent of England (never mind how Wales would fare on its own), but the EU relieves the Scots of responsibility for a wide range of functions that would otherwise be the responsibility of the nation-state (e.g., maintaining a stable currency) and also provides an avenue whereby subsidies from richer countries can keep these little ethnic sand boxes from failing. And the fiscal collapse of the PIGS (Portugual, Italy, Greece and Spain) has made citizens of the more responsible countries leery of taking on (or creating) any more weak sisters.

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Walter Laquer's "The Last Days of Europe" is rather illuminating on the state of the EC today.

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Ukraine wants to be part of Europe in the first instance. It is because they are Europeans (however it is organized).


Ukraine is in Europe...so EU membership doesn't make that official. Now, Ukraine also wants to have stronger trade ties with Europe, which I support, but I still don't think joining the EU is a good idea for the nation.

This is why I've always liked the words of Thomas Jefferson:

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Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.



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The Orthodoxy of Kyiv is not that of Moscow - they are culturally far apart in fact.


I understand and completely support a free Ukrainian Orthodox Church (and I would love for her to be in communion with Rome)

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And no one is forced to do immoral acts, even though states allow them.


Not yet but trust me the secularist in the EU want to destroy traditional morality.

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The individual is solely responsible for the morality or immorality of his or her actions in whatever cultural milieu happens to be the social context
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Of course but don't think that those in charge will try to change what is and always has been immoral to something that is moral by any means necessary.

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Don't kid yourselves, there are angry secularists aplenty in Russia and Ukraine who despise religion and the state Church. They are biding their time.

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Don't kid yourselves, there are angry secularists aplenty in Russia and Ukraine who despise religion and the state Church. They are biding their time.


Sadly true.

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And they don't need bi-spectacled old men in the Hague to lead them where they want to be to marginalize Faith.

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Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.


Wasn't it Jefferson who made a hash our of our economy with his misbegotten Embargo Act? Not the best of authorities to cite on foreign policy.

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Wasn't it Jefferson who made a hash our of our economy with his misbegotten Embargo Act? Not the best of authorities to cite on foreign policy.


Never said he was perfect just that I agree with the sentiment expressed in the quote.

Think of the disastrous consequences of entangling alliances. World War I's centennial is this year. A tragic and useless war that killed millions and lead to an even great and more tragic second war.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 03/28/14 01:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
The EU promotes anti-Christian values and forces member states to bid by them in the name of "human rights."


The reality though is this is probably not due to a centralized bureaucracy pushing societal norms down to an unwilling populace. I think whatever the EU promotes is probably reflecting the broader shift in ethical and moral norms, and right or wrong those are steadily shifting away from what would be considered traditional values.

I agree with Alex’s statement

And no one is forced to do immoral acts, even though states allow them.

The individual is solely responsible for the morality or immorality of his or her actions in whatever cultural milieu happens to be the social context.


That will be true in whatever political order emerges in Ukraine, it is true in the United States, Canada, the EU, …

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The super-state idea of a united Europe will never work out. The peoples of Europe will want their national sovereignty back.


You never know what the future holds, you may be right. But once an institution is in place that has reach down to almost every level of everyday life, it has acquired tremendous lasting power.

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You never know what the future holds, you may be right. But once an institution is in place that has reach down to almost every level of everyday life, it has acquired tremendous lasting power.


The EU isn't all that old and I've read many articles on the dissatisfaction many Europeans feels over losing their national sovereignty.

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The reality though is this is probably not due to a centralized bureaucracy pushing societal norms down to an unwilling populace. I think whatever the EU promotes is probably reflecting the broader shift in ethical and moral norms, and right or wrong those are steadily shifting away from what would be considered traditional values.


While I see your point, and tend to agree there is some evidence to the contrary. The EU is pushing the SSM agenda all over Europe but people are resisting, like in France.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 03/29/14 10:12 PM.
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Dear Nelson,

In fact, Europe's Christians are pushing back and there is a wave of traditionalism among them there. I've seen it myself and had to rub my eyes to reassure myself I wasn't imagining it.

I wasn't - thanks be to God.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
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I think Ukraine would love to be like Poland economically!


Yes, but most Western European nations would be better off without the EU ( England and Germany come to mind). Spain and Greece are economic disasters and the other countries are having to ball them out.

Poland should be weary. The better off they get economically the more of their GDP will go to the EU to bail out the next Greece.

The EU promotes anti-Christian values and forces member states to bid by them in the name of "human rights."

The super-state idea of a united Europe will never work out. The peoples of Europe will want their national sovereignty back.

I agree.

It is sad that it took Ukraine more than a generation to escape a godless union (i.e., the Soviet Union) and realize its aspirations to independence and sovereignty; while it now appears to be ready to give up that hard won independence and sovereignty by joining another godless union (i.e, the European Union). I guess people never learn.

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
It is sad that it took Ukraine more than a generation to escape a godless union (i.e., the Soviet Union) and realize its aspirations to independence and sovereignty; while it now appears to be ready to give up that hard won independence and sovereignty by joining another godless union (i.e, the European Union). I guess people never learn.


Yes. Very sad.

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Dear Todd,

Actually, you've no real idea what the issues in Ukraine are vis-a-vis Russia.

History has taught those who think in this way very little in that department.

Lip service to the contrary, Russia is still Godless and still bases itself on Leninist principles, despite the co-opting of the Orthodox Church into its department of geopolitical influence-getting.

I can't believe what you've written here. That is what is truly sad.


Alex

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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Russia is still Godless and still bases itself on Leninist principles, despite the co-opting of the Orthodox Church into its department of geopolitical influence-getting.


Wow! That is a deeply disturbing and uncharitable comment.
Very sad.

Last edited by Recluse; 03/30/14 07:47 PM.
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