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Re: Convert Question [Re: Athanasius The L] #405765
05/15/14 01:20 PM
05/15/14 01:20 PM
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Upstate New York
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DMD Offline
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Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Originally Posted by Mark R
To return to the topic...I think it may be a sin to convert if it requires re-baptism. I was always afraid that would be a sin against the Holy Spirit.
Although Catholics did this too, and I have seen Catholics do this still on occasion.

Neither Catholics nor Orthodox "re-baptize", at least not from their perspective. The Orthodox and Catholics alike hold that baptism cannot be repeated. Catholics "re-baptize" when the prior "baptism" was invalid. In the case of doubts, the Catholic Church administers conditional baptism. For the Orthodox, the concept of validity is rather foreign to their mindset. However, if the prior "baptism" was deemed not to have been a true baptism, then baptism will be administered. In either case it is not a matter of re-baptism.


AS is often the case in Orthodox RCC relations,neither side can really admit that they are saying nearly the same darned thing but using different 'hocus pocus' terminology to hide the fact, lest the hot air of ten centuries of vitriol and empty polemic be exposed.

In the end it is the papacy and what it should be which divides us. Primacy, supremacy, universal jurisdiction...They are the basis of our divide and I do not see them going away.

Much of the rest we can nuance to death and make it 'go away.'

Last edited by DMD; 05/15/14 01:21 PM.
Re: Convert Question [Re: Peter J] #405766
05/15/14 01:22 PM
05/15/14 01:22 PM
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Chicago
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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Mark R
You almost need a split personality to be Eastern rite Catholic.
The same can be said for Orthodoxy

Tough to respond to this without clarification of what you mean. Are you saying this because of the Western-Rite Orthodox?
Not at all. The WRO didn't even come to mind. Just look at the basic, ongoing, unanswered debates within Eastern Orthodoxy for example - leaving Oriental Orthodoxy aside for a moment - the rights and privileges of the EP - what are they, who says so, and is it a matter of Tradition or simple convenience? Is the ROC within it's right to grant Autocephaly? Is the AOA-NA headed by a single head Metropolitan who is the only vote in the AOC Holy Synod and does he or the Patriarch have the authority to dethrone installed hierarchs? To chrismate, profess in, or baptise or not to baptise OO, RC, EC, ACoE, protestant converts; what about those from other EO jurisdictions - conditional just to be on the safe side; Triple immersion required or suggested? In regard to primacy - collegiality with weak head, or strong head rubber stamp college? Are non-EO graceless schismatic heretics, or sister churches separated? Is it more important to be ethnically correct, or actually practicing the faith in regard to Marriages, Baptism, Eucharist? etc

Re: Convert Question [Re: DMD] #405767
05/15/14 01:23 PM
05/15/14 01:23 PM
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Posts: 1,431
New England
Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Mark R
You almost need a split personality to be Eastern rite Catholic.
The same can be said for Orthodoxy

Tough to respond to this without clarification of what you mean. Are you saying this because of the Western-Rite Orthodox?

WRO as someone posted on oc.net earlier today has maybe 2000 adherents worldwide and is at best a 'boutique' expression of faith.

Good point. In any case, that probably wasn't what Michael_Thoma was referring to anyhow, but IDK.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Michael_Thoma] #405768
05/15/14 01:24 PM
05/15/14 01:24 PM
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New England
Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Mark R
You almost need a split personality to be Eastern rite Catholic.
The same can be said for Orthodoxy

Tough to respond to this without clarification of what you mean. Are you saying this because of the Western-Rite Orthodox?
Not at all. The WRO didn't even come to mind. Just look at the basic, ongoing, unanswered debates within Eastern Orthodoxy for example - leaving Oriental Orthodoxy aside for a moment - the rights and privileges of the EP - what are they, who says so, and is it a matter of Tradition or simple convenience? Is the ROC within it's right to grant Autocephaly? Is the AOA-NA headed by a single head Metropolitan who is the only vote in the AOC Holy Synod and does he or the Patriarch have the authority to dethrone installed hierarchs? To chrismate, profess in, or baptise or not to baptise OO, RC, EC, ACoE, protestant converts; what about those from other EO jurisdictions - conditional just to be on the safe side; Triple immersion required or suggested? In regard to primacy - collegiality with weak head, or strong head rubber stamp college? Are non-EO graceless schismatic heretics, or sister churches separated? Is it more important to be ethnically correct, or actually practicing the faith in regard to Marriages, Baptism, Eucharist? etc

OIC.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Phillip Rolfes] #405769
05/15/14 01:36 PM
05/15/14 01:36 PM
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Posts: 294
East of the West
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Ditto on WRO.
Athanasius, I am sorry but some of the Orthidox do re-baptise. It is common among the Greeks, it done for quite a span by ROCOR. I know people do not like to count ROCOR during their anti-ecumenical phase, but they were in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem at least then. If Fr. Seraphim Rose had delayed converting by several years, he would have been re-baptised. Objectively, if one year RC baptism is recognised, the next year it is not and a convert from Catholicism is baptised Orthodox, it is re-baptism.
To be honest, when I was much younger it was what held me back from Orthodoxy (I much preferred the ROCOR parish in town, and I still do).

Re: Convert Question [Re: Mark R] #405771
05/15/14 03:01 PM
05/15/14 03:01 PM
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Posts: 1,283
Texas
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Originally Posted by Mark R
Ditto on WRO.
Athanasius, I am sorry but some of the Orthidox do re-baptise. It is common among the Greeks, it done for quite a span by ROCOR. I know people do not like to count ROCOR during their anti-ecumenical phase, but they were in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem at least then. If Fr. Seraphim Rose had delayed converting by several years, he would have been re-baptised. Objectively, if one year RC baptism is recognised, the next year it is not and a convert from Catholicism is baptised Orthodox, it is re-baptism.
To be honest, when I was much younger it was what held me back from Orthodoxy (I much preferred the ROCOR parish in town, and I still do).

My point is that from their perspective, it is not rebaptism, just as we Catholics do not believe we rebaptize converts who were "baptized" invalidly.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Phillip Rolfes] #405773
05/15/14 04:44 PM
05/15/14 04:44 PM
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HEre is the link to the Greek ORthodox Metropolis of Denver's pastoral guidelines governing the reception of Converts. I specifically direct your attention to "IX. Receiving Those Previously Baptized through Chrismation" Trinitarian baptism in the form of the Father , Son and Holy Spirit is acceptable. Other formulas are not. Chrismation of all converts has been required by the Archdiocese since 1987. I believe that these are uniform regulations of the entire Greek Archdiocese (EP) within the USA.


http://www.denver.goarch.org/offices/registry/forms/baptism.pdf

Re: Convert Question [Re: DMD] #405779
05/16/14 06:43 AM
05/16/14 06:43 AM
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Posts: 13
Canonsburg, PA
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Reading through the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver's pastoral guidelines governing the reception of Converts (link posted by DMD) I came across something to me was strange.

VIII. "the following persons can not be Sponsors: .....(f) An Orthodox Deacon, Priest, or Metropolitan."

Why would a deacon, priest, or metropolitian not be allowed to be a sponser? These men surely have been educated by/in the faith.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Searcher] #405780
05/16/14 09:04 AM
05/16/14 09:04 AM
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Posts: 2,585
Chicago
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Originally Posted by Searcher
Reading through the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver's pastoral guidelines governing the reception of Converts (link posted by DMD) I came across something to me was strange.

VIII. "the following persons can not be Sponsors: .....(f) An Orthodox Deacon, Priest, or Metropolitan."

Why would a deacon, priest, or metropolitian not be allowed to be a sponser? These men surely have been educated by/in the faith.
An EC priest once told me he cannot be a sponsor/Godfather because he would be 'spiritual Father' to the baptized and would concelebrate(?) the baptism if invited.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Michael_Thoma] #405783
05/16/14 10:30 AM
05/16/14 10:30 AM
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Posts: 328
New York, NY
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Roman Catholic priests and religious were until 1983 explicitly forbidden from being godparents under the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Can. 766). They could, however, get special permission to serve. While there's not a blanket prohibition now, the ideas as to why it was discouraged still apply.

Re: Convert Question [Re: JBenedict] #405787
05/16/14 12:29 PM
05/16/14 12:29 PM
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If Orthodoxy is one thing, it is like the what Will Rogers once observed when asked if he belonged to an organized political party. He replied, no - he was a democrat. One could make a similar response about Orthodoxy.

Plenty of ACROD clergy and deacons are Godfather. My uncle was my Godfather, my father's best friend at seminary was my brother's godfather and so on through the present day - including a baptism or two this year across our diocese.

And we are under the omophorion of the EP - but independent of the Greek Archdiocese. Not unlike the status of the Eparchy of Muchachevo in relation to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Muchachevo is in union with Rome, but not in the UGCC synod.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Michael_Thoma] #405788
05/16/14 01:03 PM
05/16/14 01:03 PM
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Posts: 978
Fatherhood
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Quote
An EC priest once told me he cannot be a sponsor/Godfather because he would be 'spiritual Father' to the baptized and would concelebrate(?) the baptism if invited.


Interesting. My son's Godfather is a married Ukrainian Greek Catholic Priest, whose wife is his Godmother. If my memory serves me right, my parish priest offered for him to concelebrate the liturgy (and serve as sponsor) but he simply wanted to be there as the sponsor.

Btw: pictures of that event can be viewed here grin (sorry to plug my family blog)

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 05/16/14 01:03 PM.
Re: Convert Question [Re: DMD] #405817
05/18/14 10:39 PM
05/18/14 10:39 PM
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Posts: 186
Washington state - Go Hawks!!!
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Originally Posted by DMD

Somehow we all have to figure out a way to escape history and recognize that destiny is not bound by past errors along the way.


Mm!!! Somebody needs to write that into the Book of Proverbs. smile

Amen and amen.

Re: Convert Question [Re: DMD] #405818
05/18/14 10:43 PM
05/18/14 10:43 PM
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Posts: 186
Washington state - Go Hawks!!!
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More material for expanding Proverbs...

Originally Posted by DMD

AS is often the case in Orthodox RCC relations,neither side can really admit that they are saying nearly the same darned thing but using different 'hocus pocus' terminology to hide the fact, lest the hot air of ten centuries of vitriol and empty polemic be exposed.

Re: Convert Question [Re: Phillip Rolfes] #405838
05/19/14 07:41 PM
05/19/14 07:41 PM
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Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
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The only way to escape from history is to know history, and to confront it objectively and with an open mind--or so Archimandrite Robert Taft has always insisted.

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