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Last edited by Fr David Straut; 05/24/14 03:20 PM.
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Ditto.

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There are many priests who have their own opinions about matters, even when those opinions are not in line with the theology and understanding of their church. Unless they have openly committed a sin, their opinions are just opinions, even if scandalous.

We, the faithful kiss the hands of priests and/or bishops, even one's we know have not lived up to the standard they should have in their thoughts and actions. Their hands touch Christ through the Eucharist. Other priests still concelebrate with them even though they may know those priests and/or bishops are not as worthy in their positions as they should be.

The elderly priest is wrong and is openly defying the belief of the Church. However, he is still a priest--as he has not been defrocked or excommunicated. In that light, it seems to me that the humble and down to earth Pope Francis is respecting the office of the Priest, and not necessarily the opinions of that particular priest.

I look forward to tomorrow's historic event when Pope Francis will meet and pray together with Patriarch Bartholomew at the holy site of our Lord's sepulcher and I don't want to think ill of him.

We are living in really terrible times in so many ways. I am angry at the elderly priest's politically correct and disillusioned thoughts and ideas, as it shows how many people are fast losing touch with spiritual reality.

I rather focus on something positive right now in tomorrow's meeting of love. There is so little else that is positive in these terrible, neo-pagan, hedonistic, selfish, sinful and violent times. frown

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St. Francis one asked what he would do if he met a priest whose notorious and grave sins were known to him alone.

He replied, "I would kiss his and and ask his blessing. He's still a priest."

I believe that's how the story goes.

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Unless they have openly committed a sin, their opinions are just opinions, even if scandalous.


Alice:

Christ is Risen!!

You made your a point, but you may have missed it. Scandal is as much a very serious sin as any other--perhaps even more so since it seems to have no direct ill effect. But the truth is that it weakens the moral sense of others by confusing them about what is objectively right and what is objectively wrong.

Sadly, it seesm that His Holiness' desire to be a more welcoming Church--more open to reconciliation--is being taken advantage of. The implications of his actions seem to put a blessing on, or at least a veneer of acceptance of, what our catechism calls "an innate disorder" and the sexual actions of those with this disorder "a grave depravity."

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 05/25/14 11:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by theophan

Alice:

Christ is Risen!!

You made your a point, but you may have missed it. Scandal is as much a very serious sin as any other--perhaps even more so since it seems to have no direct ill effect. But the truth is that it weakens the moral sense of others by confusing them about what is objectively right and waht is objectively wrong.

Sadly, it seesm that His Holiness' desire to be a more welcoming Church--more open to reconciliation--is being taken advantage of. The implications of his actions seem to put a blessing on, or at least a veneer of acceptance of, what our catechism calls "an innate disorder" and the sexual actions of those with this disorder "a grave depravity."

Bob

Indeed He is Risen!

Yes....I agree with this, Bob.

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Bob,

I guess you are right...there is so much confusion around, that the Pope shouldn't add to it.

As I said, I am very angry at how the neo-pagan world is obsessed with redefining homosexuality, love and marriage. The elderly priest is way off base in his thinking, for sure.

What kind of strange and perverse world are children today going to be growing up in? It is so very frightening.

Lord have mercy.

Best regards,
Alice


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\\at least a veneer of acceptance of, what our catechism calls "an innate disorder"\\

Were this so, homosexuality would be amenable to either the spiritual or psychotherapeutic process, or a combination.

Alas, this doesn't seem to be so.

BTW, my on-line dictionary defines "innate" as "inborn or natural."

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Originally Posted by Alice
There are many priests who have their own opinions about matters, even when those opinions are not in line with the theology and understanding of their church. Unless they have openly committed a sin, their opinions are just opinions, even if scandalous.

We, the faithful kiss the hands of priests and/or bishops, even one's we know have not lived up to the standard they should have in their thoughts and actions. Their hands touch Christ through the Eucharist. Other priests still concelebrate with them even though they may know those priests and/or bishops are not as worthy in their positions as they should be.

The elderly priest is wrong and is openly defying the belief of the Church. However, he is still a priest--as he has not been defrocked or excommunicated. In that light, it seems to me that the humble and down to earth Pope Francis is respecting the office of the Priest, and not necessarily the opinions of that particular priest.


Yes, exactly.

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Originally Posted by theophan
Scandal is as much a very serious sin as any other--perhaps even more so since it seems to have no direct ill effect. But the truth is that it weakens the moral sense of others by confusing them about what is objectively right and waht is objectively wrong.

Sadly, it seesm that His Holiness' desire to be a more welcoming Church--more open to reconciliation--is being taken advantage of. The implications of his actions seem to put a blessing on, or at least a veneer of acceptance of, what our catechism calls "an innate disorder" and the sexual actions of those with this disorder "a grave depravity."


Do not forget that our Savior washed the feet of and concelebrated a liturgy with Judas, knowing full well the level of darkness in the apostle's heart. Some example that gave the world, huh? (...Oh, wait a minute... wink )

To be clear, I understand the consternation. But there is a dual dynamic present, and I also think I completely understand what Pope Francis is doing here and would, thus, encourage a more mature approach (than the liberal/conservative paradigm allows for). His Holiness is a man of deep orthodox faith and deep compassion (obviously) as well. Therefore, he traverses the line between, shall we say, the Spirit and letter of the Law more readily than most of the rest of us do. This is to suggest that "he hates the sin but loves the sinner" more readily than most of the rest of us do.

While in fear, a good many conservatives would like to denounce the priest referenced and leave him to his own devices in the dust "on the sidewalk", Pope Francis, I'm sure, in the mature spirit that he has, saw/sees the humanity in the priest and chose to love him instead. I'm sure Francis believes that this priest is acting in good faith in the heterodoxy he is promoting and His Holiness is, for this reason, much more ready to exercise that "oikonomia" in this case, so deeply appreciated by the East (if I've understood - not to mention spelled - the concept correctly).

Of course, this does not mean that the pope is "ok" with this priest promoting homosexuality. It simply means that the priest in question is a man, just like all the rest of us are, who seems to be doing the best he can with what he's got. And Francis accurately perceives that and is choosing to "go easy" on the man (at least for the time being) as a result, much like our Lord did with one Saul of Tarsus.

May God continue to shower blessings upon the pope for his warmth and humility; and may the rest of us be given the grace to imitate this living Saint.

Theotokos, pray for us.

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Originally Posted by Talon
Do not forget that our Savior washed the feet of and concelebrated a liturgy with Judas, knowing full well the level of darkness in the apostle's heart.


Judas was also referred to as, "the son of perdition."

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Do not forget that our Savior washed the feet of and concelebrated a liturgy with Judas, knowing full well the level of darkness in the apostle's heart. Some example that gave the world, huh? (...Oh, wait a minute... wink )


I'm sorry, you are wrong. Go back and read the Gospel accounts. Our Lord does not begin the confection of the Eucharist until Judas has left to betray Him. Only after the betrayer has left does the first Liturgy begin.

It is one thing to associate with sinners, to treat them with the respect that they deserve as human beings created in the image of God and with that innate dignity. It is quite another to validate their wrong or sinful behavior by participating with them in an evil deed or doing some form of action which appears to say "Meaaaah, what does it matter?"

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Not judging is laudable; going beyond that moves into "approval" territory.

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Mark:

Christ is Risen!!

I agree with you. I'd also like to comment on this "not judging" idea that has corrupted the real meaning of the Gospel passage.

The idea of not judging relates to the motivation behind an action, not the action itself. We can say, objectively, that an action is sinful, but we cannot judge the person's heart--that is God's territory. A person may not have a fully formed conscience within the framework of Gospel taeaching and values, for example. A person may make a mistake--an honest mistake--and still have done something objectively wrong.

The problem here is that this man has publicly stated that his objective is to change the Church's--and thus, the Lord's--teaching about this lifestyle: that it is wrong.

We should always note, too, that the sin of scandal has weakened all of our moral senses in that we do not equally condemn sexual behavior of any kind outside the bounds of a marraige between one man and one woman. The unmarried do not have the right to cohabit in a way that signals that they think they have the right to the privileges of the married state. But we've become so desensitized in this area over the last many years that almost no one notices or objects.

Bob

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St. Francis one asked . . . and . . . replied, "I would kiss his and and ask his blessing. He's still a priest."


Christ is Risen!!

I think there's a distinction here. A bishop does not kiss the hand of a priest. Kissing the hand is an act that signals the greater dignity of the office holder. In this case, it is a signal that causes confusion because the question becomes what it signifies. St. Francis was not a priest when he made this comment, so the priest would have held greater ecclesiastical rank than he. I've only ever heard of a bishop accepting a blessing from a priest after he has ordained the latter.

Bob

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