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I am of the opinion that their ordained women are priestesses, not priests. I tell my good Episcopalian friends that I don't care what they choose to ordain, but I do care about them trying to screw up a perfectly good language.

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I don't feel like I need to insult them that way anymore. We're not duking it out in the same denomination anymore. I am what I am ("I'm Popeye the sailor man"); they're what they are. That's how we "coexist" as that showoff politically correct bumper sticker (more like "contradict") says. They have the same creed.

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Personally I see Anglicans as heretics in need of conversion to the Orthodox faith. So I'm not really a supporter of a "live and let live" theology.

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Of course I want them to become Catholic but I can't force them. Free will.

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They seem to be doing a good job of decimating themselves with membership down in the U.S. at least one third. They don't need any help.

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
They seem to be doing a good job of decimating themselves with membership down in the U.S. at least one third. They don't need any help.

Yep. The values the mainline adopted are ruling society but the mainline itself is tanking.

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Dear Nelson,

He was going to be confirmed at a Roman-Rite parish which was followed by the Anglican Rite Mass (as the RC Bishop himself referred to it).

He became Antiochian Orthodox but attends an Ordinariate parish as such . . . His wife is Ethiopian Orthodox . . .

Alex

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
Of course I want them to become Catholic but I can't force them. Free will.

I don't remember posting anything about forcing anyone to do anything. I simply see no reason to continue ecumenical dialogue with a non-Christian organization like the Church of England. The approach instead should be to evangelize the pagans in Britain and help to convert them to Christianity.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
I don't feel like I need to insult them that way anymore. We're not duking it out in the same denomination anymore. I am what I am ("I'm Popeye the sailor man"); they're what they are. That's how we "coexist" as that showoff politically correct bumper sticker (more like "contradict") says. They have the same creed.

There is more to the creed than simply reciting the words, one must also hold the Orthodox faith, and Anglicans do not.

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The Episcopalians I know personally here in the SF Bay Area really are new age pagans. They don't even believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God.

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One priest of the Anglican Ordinariate once told me this:

In the national Episcopal cathedral in Washington, a Bishopess was carrying an image of the Buddha toward the altar to the tune of gender-neutral hymns.

When she got to the altar, she placed the Buddha image on top of it and continued with her "liturgy."

At this, an elderly Episcopalian in the first pew nudged his equally elderly neighbour and said, "OK, Fred, one more thing like this and I'm outta here!"

Again, there is no reason why Anglicans and Lutherans, once they become either Catholics or Orthodox, should feel any less than what they are for having joined either.

Alex

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Dear All,

I have to say that I find the tone of some (not all) of the criticisms of the Anglican decisions over women's ordination to be decidedly un-Christian. As far as I can see (and I am open to correction on any of this), the arguments seem to be (a) Jesus never had any male apostles; (b) the Church historically never ordained women; and (c) if ordination of women is to come in, it is something the whole church should do (not just one part of it).

I think the questions (and women!) deserve much more careful thought. As an example, I found a very interesting interview given by Bishop Kallistos Ware to St Nina's Quarterly in 1997. The whole thing is well worth reading, but I offer this excerpt as providing interesting and deeply considered points for discussion:

(Bishop Kallistos) “First of all, we should try to go ahead with the revival of the order of deaconess. That has been discussed for many years. Some people were already discussing it at the beginning of this century in the Orthodox world. Nothing has yet been done. The order of deaconess was never abolished, it merely fell into disuse. Should we not revive it? If we do, what are to be the functions of deaconesses? They should not necessarily, in the twentieth or twenty-first century, be doing exactly what they were doing in the third or fourth century. The order may be the same, yet shouldn’t we rethink the functions that the deaconess might have? On my understanding of the evidence, they were regarded as ordained persons on an equal footing as the male deacons. (There is some dispute in the Orthodox world about that, but my reading of the evidence is quite clear—that they have not just a blessing but an ordination). Let us go beyond that, however. The minor order of reader, cannot that be conferred on women? It wasn’t done in the early Church (as far as I know), but why shouldn’t women now be admitted as readers because, as you say, that is what they are doing. In the early Church that was not so except in the women’s monasteries. Those are two, as I understand it, fairly noncontroversial possibilities.”

Any thoughts?

Oh, and BTW, Ireland allegedly had a female bishop many centuries ago: apparently, St Mel conferred bishop's orders upon St Brigid, who is often pictured in icons and statues holding a bishop's crozier! OK, that may be legendary, but still....

Craig


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Craig:

Christ is in our midst!!

For Catholics, the final word was spoken by Pope St. John Paul II in 1994. So the door is closed for us permanently. Link here:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j..._22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

During that same period, the Armenian Apostolic Church made a similar statement about its position in regard to this matter. It was posted online, too.

Bob

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I think the questions (and women!) deserve much more careful thought.


The Church has given it considerable thought and as Theophan mentioned as Catholics the issue is settled, regardless of what supporters of women's ordination to the priesthood say:

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I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. - Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994)



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Any thoughts?


I don't see why the order of deaconess could not be restored. There seems to be some debate on if deaconess were ordained in the same sense that male deacons were. Arguments for the ancient order of deaconess don't change the fact the women can not be ordained as priests or bishops.

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Oh, and BTW, Ireland allegedly had a female bishop many centuries ago: apparently, St Mel conferred bishop's orders upon St Brigid, who is often pictured in icons and statues holding a bishop's crozier! OK, that may be legendary, but still...


It is not uncommon for an Abbess of large convents to be given a croziers or something very similar. I've seen many Orthodox Abbess in photographs holdings a staff that was very similar to one used by Orthodox Abbots.

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One priest of the Anglican Ordinariate once told me this:

In the national Episcopal cathedral in Washington, a Bishopess was carrying an image of the Buddha toward the altar to the tune of gender-neutral hymns.

When she got to the altar, she placed the Buddha image on top of it and continued with her "liturgy."

At this, an elderly Episcopalian in the first pew nudged his equally elderly neighbour and said, "OK, Fred, one more thing like this and I'm outta here!"


I've heard this story before but it was different in that the people in the front pew were Anglo-catholic priests. :-)

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/22/14 11:39 AM.
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