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Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #407161 07/27/14 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear JDC,

Don't know who is quibbling about "schism."

Yes, we take the man at his word. But the point is that given the positives Rome emphasizes with respect to Orthodoxy, the question is about whether entering communion with Orthodoxy constitutes "schism" from Rome's perspective which doesn't apply that word to the ecclesial status of Orthodoxy any longer


I think we ought to be careful to distinguish between what people avoid saying for the sake of fraternity, charity, or courtesy, or to create a grassroots groundswell to being about a better state of affairs, or for whatever motive, and what undeniably is. There is much common ground between Catholic and Orthodox, but not all that is needed for communion. This priest has taken a step that excommunicates some of us from him and brings into communion others.

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: JDC] #407166 07/27/14 07:30 PM
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Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Dear JDC,

Agreed! This man cannot know go to Communion in any Catholic Church. Nor would he want to.

I know a good number of Catholics who have become Orthodox and they really hate the RC Church for all sorts of reasons - but mostly traditional ones. Everything from the introduction of the Filioque to the liberalism following Vatican II etc.

I normally would never attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy as I would prefer to be at one where I could completely attend by receiving Holy Communion (and I don't want to be told that only Orthodox Christians may attend Communion etc.).

You are more than correct regarding politeness. But Rome has long since stopped using the term "schism" and prefers something more akin to "out of communion."

That is correct, in my view, since "schismatic" tends to define someone who disobeys and is separated from Church authority. There are schismatics in both RC and Orthodox Churches.

The case can be made that Orthodoxy, historically, never accepted Rome's direct jursdiction over it and that the Papacy, as it has evolved since 1054 AD, is markedly different from that previous.

When groups of Orthodox Christians came into union with Rome, such as at the Union of Brest in 1596 - such unions were markedly different from that of the first millennium. We "came under" Rome''s jurisdiction.

And we've been fighting it, and the Latinisation that came with it, ever since.

Alex

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: griego catolico] #407168 07/27/14 07:42 PM
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Agreed! This man cannot know go to Communion in any Catholic Church. Nor would he want to.


Of course he can, and how do you know he would not want to?

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: StuartK] #407170 07/27/14 08:30 PM
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Of course he can...


No Stuart, he can't. As much as it pains me, I can't receive in an Orthodox Church because I became a Catholic. Same thing with Fr. Constantine. He left communion with the Church of Rome and those churches in communion with her. His new ecclesial home, the Moscow Patriarchate, is not in communion with Rome, so why would a cleric of the MP commune in a non-Orthodox Church? I believe that technically he would be committing an act of schism, from the Orthodox Churches point of view, by communing in a non-Orthodox Church.


Last edited by Nelson Chase; 07/27/14 08:32 PM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: griego catolico] #407171 07/27/14 08:40 PM
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The Ordo for the 2014-2015 academic year has been posted on the POI website .
Fr. Simon is not listed anywhere.

Considering that Fr. Simon was a guest lecturer at the Saint Tikhon University in Moscow and at the Saint Petersburg Theological Seminary, my guess is that any future teaching will be done there.

Interview with Fr. Simon in 2010 on old SPTS website.

Last edited by griego catolico; 07/28/14 12:21 PM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: StuartK] #407172 07/28/14 05:33 AM
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Agreed! This man cannot know go to Communion in any Catholic Church. Nor would he want to.

I cannot speak to that last part, but I assume that even if he did want to receive he would humbly refrain from doing so anyhow.

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: StuartK] #407175 07/28/14 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Agreed! This man cannot know go to Communion in any Catholic Church. Nor would he want to.


Of course he can, and how do you know he would not want to?


The Russian Orthodox Church is quite particular (no pun intended) about this point of intercommunion.

Orthodox doctrine is clear about how participation in the Most Holy Mysteries affirms that one is in full communion with the Church.

So he could not receive Communion without committing a major sin and he may even, as has been suggested, excommunicating himself.

My conclusion that he would not want to receive Communion in the Church he has left is based on the notion that if a Jesuit, a member of the Order that is closest to the Papacy and an historical defender of it (not to mention its contributions to the formation of the papal dogmas of the 19th century), left not only that Order but also the Roman Communion - there must have been quite hefty reasons for him doing so.

For the life of me, I can't see such a one ever wishing to receive Communion from the Roman or any other Church that Orthodoxy deems to be heretical and cut off from itself.

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 07/28/14 08:21 AM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: griego catolico] #407178 07/28/14 09:35 AM
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I don't want to sound nasty, but it seems like a lot of Catholics of any rite have no clear idea what is entailed receiving communion in an Orthodox church. It is not a come one come all affair like in your average N. American parish. The Orthodox priest knows his communicants, he expects to have seen them at confession at Saturday vespers, or at least at confession during the Hours preceding Divine Liturgy. Otherwise, he will stop you before the chalice and question you if you have been to confession elsewhere or if you are otherwise prepared to receive. The Orthodox also have reams of prayers to read before receiving. It is a weighty affair, as it should be, requiring much preparation.
There is no one to blame for what goes on in the Roman communion than Roman practice itself, although in Poland when I lived there people had the decency not to receive communion unless having confessed very recently beforehand.

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Mark R] #407182 07/28/14 10:20 AM
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Dear Mark,

Absolutely - thank you for pointing this out.

I used to work for a Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox fellow and he asked me to stop by his home to pick up some papers.

When I got there, he was reading the Canon of St Andrew of Crete . . .

He told me that he had been to confession that morning but that his confessor refused to absolve him. He had told him that the sin he was confessing was something he had confessed a few weeks before and still no improvement?

As he got up to leave, the priest asked him, "And did you read the Canon of St Andrew before you came here today?"

I took the documents and left Vlad to his prayers . . . and prostrations . . .

Also, while we're at it, my brother and I went to confession one after the other at one time.

The priest, who knew us both, gave me the epitimia of three Hail Mary's. My brother approached me with a frown and said, "He gave me the 50th Psalm to recite - I don't even know what the 50th Psalm is!!"

I then told him what my penance was and my brother then shot back, "That's it! He confused us and gave me YOUR penance!!"

I told him there was nothing to be done about it, showed him the text of the Psalm and, to encourage him, said that if he got up early and went to bed late, he just might manage it . . . grin

Have a great day sir!

Alex

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Mark R] #407184 07/28/14 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R
I don't want to sound nasty, but it seems like a lot of Catholics of any rite have no clear idea what is entailed receiving communion in an Orthodox church. It is not a come one come all affair like in your average N. American parish. The Orthodox priest knows his communicants, he expects to have seen them at confession at Saturday vespers, or at least at confession during the Hours preceding Divine Liturgy. Otherwise, he will stop you before the chalice and question you if you have been to confession elsewhere or if you are otherwise prepared to receive. The Orthodox also have reams of prayers to read before receiving. It is a weighty affair, as it should be, requiring much preparation.
There is no one to blame for what goes on in the Roman communion than Roman practice itself, although in Poland when I lived there people had the decency not to receive communion unless having confessed very recently beforehand.

The requirement of confession for every time one receives Holy Communion is not universal Orthodox practice. I know that among the Greeks it is not a requirement. It's also my understanding that the tradition among the Slavic churches of confession prior to every time one receives Holy Communion is the result of Latin Catholic influence.

Last edited by Athanasius The L; 07/28/14 11:57 AM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Athanasius The L] #407185 07/28/14 12:21 PM
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Excellent and interesting point sir!

Haven't come across that before. Creeping Latinization and all that . . . smile

Alex

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #407186 07/28/14 12:37 PM
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Quite true,what Mark describes I would assert is not the Orthodox norm at all. Perhaps in some OCA parishes - depending on the part of the country in which you are located - and in most ROCOR it might be the case. But, while we Orthodox like to portray ourselves as some sort of monolothic entity in terms of 'unchanging' practice... the answer of 'it depends' is far more common, and an answer which befuddles many Latin Catholic faithful.

Last edited by DMD; 07/28/14 12:40 PM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: griego catolico] #407187 07/28/14 12:49 PM
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I keep forgetting most of my experience is in ROCOR and Great Russian OCA. I was wrong a little. If there is another liturgy later in the same week, say a Monday or whatever, the priest will allow you to approach communion having confessed just at the Saturday vigil and not at the vigil of the weekday liturgy.
I have to say, I have always been a bad Catholic, yet I am really scandalized after living in Poland and later attending Russian liturgies how Everyone goes to communion in the Roman rite. The only exception I ever saw in this practice were Polish parishes that actually have newer immigrants and at the Toronto Oratory.
If this is a latinization, more of this kind, please!

Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Mark R] #407188 07/28/14 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R
I keep forgetting most of my experience is in ROCOR and Great Russian OCA. I was wrong a little. If there is another liturgy later in the same week, say a Monday or whatever, the priest will allow you to approach communion having confessed just at the Saturday vigil and not at the vigil of the weekday liturgy.
I have to say, I have always been a bad Catholic, yet I am really scandalized after living in Poland and later attending Russian liturgies how Everyone goes to communion in the Roman rite. The only exception I ever saw in this practice were Polish parishes that actually have newer immigrants and at the Toronto Oratory.
If this is a latinization, more of this kind, please!

Why should weekly confession be a requirement for weekly communion? One should confess prior to receiving when conscious of serious sin. Furthermore, regular confession, even of less serious sins, is beneficial. However, I do not understand why confession every time should be a requirement. It is possible to remain properly disposed to receive communion for longer than 1 week without going to confession. Not everyone who receives communion without having gone to confession very recently beforehand does so out of a lack of decency.

Last edited by Athanasius The L; 07/28/14 01:14 PM.
Re: Fr. Constantin Simon, SJ, vice-rector of POI, joins ROC [Re: Athanasius The L] #407189 07/28/14 01:48 PM
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Given that one isn't into the habit of serious sin and leads a proper prayer life, wouldn't Confession once a month suffice for frequent Holy Communion?

Fr. Alexander Schmemann (+memory eternal!) suggested that one may include the Pre-Communion prayers spread out in a week in one's daily prayers as a way to "always be ready."

Alex

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