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Dear JDC,

It's not that they "love the schism" only that they reject that authentic ecclesial unity is to be found in union with RCism in contemporary times.

It's funny, but there are traditionalist RC's who would agree with them.

Alex

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Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by Peter J
I've even seen one such Catholics assert that Orthodox love the schism.)

Do you mean you've never seen any Orthodox assert this?

I wouldn't say that was what I meant, but now that you mention it yes I have heard a couple of Orthodox assert that Orthodox love the schism (although it should be noted that one of the people who said it later left Orthodoxy).

Originally Posted by JDC
Obviously the world is full of fools and blowhards who mustn't be taken too seriously, but there is a very vocal strain of Orthodoxy that is very concerned with being the biggest fish in a tiny pond.

Well, it's not like I would immediately think of the Orthodox if I was on a quest (for whatever reason) for people who are "very concerned with being the biggest fish in a tiny pond", but yes, I imagine you can find some such people among the 200,000,000+ Orthodox.

In my humble opinion, this conversation has taken a weird turn.

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Do you think? I'd like to hear more. I'm not seeing this at all.


I don't see it either. But as I know, dear Alex of whom I think highly, generally holds the recent popes in higher regard than do I. He even thinks they were/are saints, which many agree with. I would say some of the post Vatican II popes were saintly, but their greatest gift was for shooting themselves in the foot, along with the rest of us by association.

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Well, I mean, obviously they *are* Saints, being canonized. But that's an increasingly cheap designation (the validity of which I do not question for a second). But then, I feel nearly the same certainty that my grandmother is a saint in heaven. I just have trouble conceiving any reason why the Church would want to codify that or propose her as a Christian model.

Leaving aside the canonization machine, when it comes to Pope Francis, his acts and words are not consistent for anybody to ascribe motive or judge wisdom or intellect, I think. Being nice seems to be his main thing.

As for Catholic jerks and Orthodox jerks, I guess my only point is that there are lots of jerks. Best not to worry too much about them.

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I used to argue with my religion teachers at the Catholic high school I attended on the question of saints.

There are, of course, many uncanonized saints, including those we have known in our families and among our friends. We are entitled to invoke them in our private or family prayers, to be sure.

Canonization/Glorification is another matter, of course, and has to do with the saints' relation to the entire Body of Christ in a very public way. Nothing of a "cheap designation" about that.

As for the canonization machine, such a machine would not need to exist if Rome, among other things, returned to the earlier practice of allowing local Bishops and Primates to canonize/beatify their own local worthies. Even after Urban VIII, we know that such local canonizations continued to occur throughout the Western Church (e.g. Blessed Duns Scotus).

Traditionalist RC's are generally horrified at this notion, so they parrot the notion that there are too many saints being made, ignoring, at the same time, that these are, for the most part, local beati whose raising to the altars simply allows the Local Church a voice and the ability to liturgically venerate those whom it has a greater familiarity with than any centralized Roman machine.

As for the jerks thing, I agree!

Alex

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I'm not going to quibble about the Saintomatic VII. As far as I'm concerned, canonizing all the popes who presided over the present crisis is obviously a stunt aimed at self-justification, and not a genuine measure of particular sanctity.

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Quibbling is not good at any time.

But I would be interested in your making your own views about the post-Vatican II popes known so I, for one, know exactly where you're coming from.

Perhaps you'd rather not do that - in that case, we don't have a real conversation going.

As a sociologist, I appreciate your point about how canonizing recent popes is a way to affirm the post-Vatican II policies.

But as someone committed to my faith, I'd like to know what you find distasteful re: those same policies. I've my own views and have made them known here on more than on one occasion.

I've my own reasons for venerating St John XXIII and St John Paul II.

At the same time, I'm wondering about how any Catholic (and I'm truly wondering, rather than judging) may think disparagingly (iin any way) about the Catholic Church since Vatican II.

Those are the points I think you are raising without defining from within your own context. Those are the points I think would be very interesting to talk about.

Otherwise, we're just doing a futile exercise in yanking each other's chains.

Alex

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Okay, well I take Vatican 2 seriously where it says the liturgy is the source and summit of the Christian life, and the font from which all the Church's power flows, but the liturgy in the RC church has been a joke since shortly after Vatican 2 said these things. Episcopal appointments have been terrifyingly bad. Pope St. John Paul II frequently contradicted himself and by his liturgical practices encouraged the ongoing abuse of the liturgy, and Pope Paul VI, of happy memory (if they have canonized him, I neglect this unintentionally) surrounded himself with bad advisors, not in the sense that the advice, but the men, were bad. Neither one addressed with any efficacy the problems of their times. They were both apparently nice people, loved, and terrible leaders. We could scarcely have sailed under captains less well suited to the weather. The entire era has been a catastrophe. They have presided over a monumental decline and fed us platitudes about springtime while it was happening. At least Nero's fiddle music might have been enjoyed.

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Dear JDC,

OK, fair enough! I can't say that I disagree with you on anything you've outlined here so very articulately.

Pope Paul VI will be beatified in October. I'm actually very happy about that too!

Isn't being Catholic wonderful? smile

Pax et bonum,

Alex

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Pope Paul VI will be beatified in October. I'm actually very happy about that too!


That is almost enough to make one consider becoming Orthodox! LOL.

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Isn't being Catholic wonderful? smile


I am still thinking about that one!

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Be careful, Charles!

If you do "Dox," someone may open up a thread here about you . . . smile

I think being Catholic is wonderful!! grin

Alex

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Originally Posted by byzanTN
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Pope Paul VI will be beatified in October. I'm actually very happy about that too!

That is almost enough to make one consider becoming Orthodox! LOL.

A little surprised to hear you say that; but then, I suppose there isn't any Pope (practically) who is looked upon favorably by everyone.

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I don't know why you are surprised. Paul VI was essentially driven away from the Vatican by Pius XII who considered him dangerous. Pius XII - the one who actually should be canonized - was correct. The aged and ill John XXIII convened a council with little preparation, that he couldn't control and didn't live to finish. Surely, Paul VI was a punishment on the Church. He waffled, blew left and right with every wind, was weak, vacillating and was a wretched administrator. What authority he inherited, he squandered away and chaos ruled through his pontificate.

I will agree that Paul VI may have been a holy individual, but he was a bungling and inept leader.

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Maybe the canonization is more about "see, we only screwed up this bad... think about how much worse it could have been without the Holy Spirit!"

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Maybe the canonization is more about "see, we only screwed up this bad... think about how much worse it could have been without the Holy Spirit!"


Interesting possibility! I hadn't thought of that.

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