The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 registered members (Santiago Tarsicio, 2 invisible), 71 guests, and 432 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,737
Posts411,932
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407402 08/07/14 08:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
The ethnics either leave you in peace or are very nice. "Catholic? Oh, that's great! It's so close."

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407404 08/07/14 08:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
This isn't an official Orthodox document or anything, but it's an ol' favorite from Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon on the subject of Orthodox coming into communion with Rome (or not doing so as the case may be): Never the Twain?

Quote
they wonder why the two groups don’t just get together and put better than three-quarters of all Christians under one (papal, naturally) roof, perhaps thereby causing Protestantism at last to see the light, get with the program and come aboard.

Father Richard John Neuhaus eloquently spoke for this Roman Catholic assessment at the Rose Hill Conference in South Carolina ...

(Too long to quote the whole article.)

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: The young fogey] #407405 08/07/14 08:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by The young fogey
Peter J.'s statement ("if I were Orthodox I wouldn't switch") is true in that born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt so we don't solicit them.

Just so long as I get credit for the "I wouldn't ..." part. cool

But seriously, you're absolutely right that we do not aim at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other (cf. the Balamand Statement) -- as is probably already known to most people on this forum, notwithstanding the fact that I've been trying my darnedest to let Catholics "somewhere else" know it, with mixed results.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407410 08/07/14 10:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
Lester S Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
What if one consciously (which may allude to Phillip Rolfes's original conversion question post) decides one, over the other, without any coercion from either side?

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Lester S] #407411 08/07/14 11:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
Having the faithful of one church (theirs) pass over to the other (ours) isn't our proximate goal but it is our long-term goal.

Originally Posted by Lester S
What if one consciously (which may allude to Phillip Rolfes's original conversion question post) decides one, over the other, without any coercion from either side?

Both sides accept these conversions because both claim to be the true church. We're supposed to do it quietly, as Roman Catholic layman turned Russian Orthodox priest turned Russian Catholic priest the late Archimandrite Serge (Keleher) told me while walking along the streets of New York nearly 15 years ago.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407412 08/07/14 11:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by Jeremiah

I also suspect this may be an indicator of heavy "Latinization" of Ruthenian Catholic churches here in the eastern U.S. (Eparchy of Passaic). I'm not implying there's anything wrong with this. But it's something I've noticed. (Though I must confess a personal "itch" about this, in that there's a distinct quality to Eastern traditions that, when supplanted, is a mournful thing. And to this I must totally embrace what is mentioned in the Orientalium Ecclesiarum, as quoted here earlier: "Eastern Churches ... have a special duty of ... religious fidelity to the ancient Eastern traditions.")


I am happy that you are happy, truly.

Be prepared for that "itch" to grow, and be prepared to deal with those around you who will act to make it grow by continuing to purposely supplant the Byzantine aspects of our faith.

I, too, comforted myself with official Catholic teachings on the fulness of the Eastern Churches.

Those teachings are not only ignored, but are fought tooth-and-nail by Ruthenians that fear being seen as different from their Roman counterparts, many of them former Romans trying to remodel our home into something they find comfortable.

This is of course not true of all Ruthenians, but it is true of many, and I can't help but try to make sure you are prepared to have to constantly fight against the dismantling of the unique attributes of the Byzantine churches.

I became so weary with that fight, and the harm it caused my spiritual life, that I am now contemplating Orthodoxy for no other reason than to live an Eastern faith without a structure around me trying to water it down until it is gone.

I hoped to find that within the Catholic Church, and again I truly hope that you can, but be prepared to have to choose. I will pray you do not have to and that the itch you feel does not grow. But it sounds familiar and I wish someone had given me these thoughts to contemplate.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407413 08/08/14 12:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
A pretty common refrain in fora such as this.

As I like to say, the church has both the unlatinized and old latinized versions of the Byzantine Rite, as it should.

Ruthenian-Americans, reacting to two schisms here decades ago, very much favor the second, also because it's been part of their culture for centuries. So if you want unlatinized, then Ruthenian's probably not for you.

(Similar story with the Ukrainian Catholics, plus they are often immigrants who fled Soviet persecution that used the Orthodox.)

Picking on/looking down on conservative Roman Riters coming in is Modernism's and Orthodox anti-Westernism's cousin, not love of the unlatinized form.

Defend the unlatinized form, but 'doxing is making an idol of it.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407414 08/08/14 01:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
I don't want to defend myself from fellow Christians at the expense of my own theosis and that of my young family.

I want spiritual nourishment and growth in the Byzantine tradition as completely as is reasonably possible, and a coherent Eastern worldview for my children to learn and grow within. Seeing my brother join exactly such a parish and watching his family gain insight and instruction that I've yearned for as a matter of course put things in perspective.

I'll go where that is offered. If it means "'doxing" then that's really beside the point.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407415 08/08/14 06:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
All sin has an apparent good as its goal. The devil can turn even the theosis of yourself and your family into an idol. I'm no Pollyanna about church life and church people, and if you love the unlatinized form (reminds me of the officialese for my Mass, "the Extraordinary Form," because they barely put up with it, as they do you), you've got a rough row to hoe. That said, a recurring problem in this forum is the popularity of "tous schismatiques" theology, or treating Catholicism and Orthodoxy like mere denominations, which would mean there's no church. It's a distortion of our doctrine, that they have bishops and the Mass; they are estranged Catholics. "Tous schismatiques" also isn't fair to the Orthodox, whom this forum includes and professes to respect; they have a mirror true-church claim.

My view on this particular sin of schism (anti-Westernism from the ethnics, and Westerners 'doxing): ROCOR Russians, if you hate the Christianity of the country that literally saved your lives after World War II and gave you a home thanks to religious liberty; converts, if you hate yourselves so much that you really want to turn your backs on your own people and culture (an attitude I'd think born Orthodox would find foreign and repugnant) as well as the objective truth that we are the same faith (Trinity, hypostatic union, Mother of God, bishops, and the Mass), you all know that the Eastern European homeland's not Communist anymore, right? Put your money where your mouths are and buy a one-way ticket to Moscow, Athens, or Belgrade, ingrates. I love Russian, etc. culture, and the unlatinized as well as the old latinized forms, as does the church, but schism is evil.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: The young fogey] #407416 08/08/14 06:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by The young fogey
Defend the unlatinized form, but 'doxing is making an idol of it.

However, not all Scots like haggis. This ^^ statement ought to say "Those converts who idolize the unlatinized form make an idol of it."

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407417 08/08/14 06:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
No need. I distinguish between all defenders of the unlatinized form and those who make an idol of it. The latter, the ones who 'dox, make it harder for the good Catholics who try to defend that form.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: The young fogey] #407419 08/08/14 07:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by The young fogey
No need. I distinguish between all defenders of the unlatinized form and those who make an idol of it. The latter, the ones who 'dox, make it harder for the good Catholics who try to defend that form.


But you can't say " but 'doxing is making an idol of it" because some people 'dox without it having anything to do with Easternicity/Westernicity, let alone idolizing. (Plus I know some converts to Orthodoxy who believe that Western Rite Orthodoxy should be more Western, but that's another ball of wax.)

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407420 08/08/14 07:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
T
The young fogey Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,712
I contend that choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is idolizing Easternness, even if only implicitly; it's their logical conclusion based on their premise.

Exception: there is a kind of principled old-fashioned Anglican high churchman who's not a would-be Catholic, even if his liturgical practice resembles ours. Like the Carolines, Non-Jurors, and Tractarians, he believes in something based on Hooker that he thinks is Anglicanism; definitely non-papal. He holds that we're a branch of the church but in grave error, that his is the pure version of Western Catholicism, much like confessional Lutherans do. This describes most of American Anglo-Catholicism historically, in the Episcopal Church; the British version was would-be Catholic. I can see these 'doxing on principle, and a few have. They have my respect.

Then they get hit in the face with Orthodox anti-Westernism (again, the logical conclusion of Orthodox theological opinions), much like jjp and legions more in the Greek Catholic option get smacked with Catholics' suspicion about the unlatinized form. Then they either go completely native (Fr. Gregory Hallam in Britain), struggle to be Western Rite Orthodox and usually end up pressured to byzantinize the way Ruthenians are latinized, or go back.

A wise Catholic friend speaks for me:

Quote
Remember, Orthodoxy exists because of Tsars and Sultans. Its entire reason for being is to hate the West. Sad. The Council of Florence solved the Schism. Orthodoxy really only dates from after that point. Once the Schism was healed, the petty princes and the Ottoman sultans got to work. Once Byzantium fell, the tsars realized the benefits of a non-papal church they could control. And thus, Orthodoxy is born and nurtured.

Since Russian Orthodoxy was the first to repudiate Florence (some sort of Russian synod rejected it in 1441; also its declaration of independence from Constantinople?), it's the oldest Orthodox church as such; the Greeks as a separate church date from 1484 this month.

Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: Jeremiah] #407421 08/08/14 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 20
Jeremiah Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 20
I recently discovered on the website of the Eparchy of Phoenix an excellent resource that outlines the distinctives of Byzantine Catholicism. Some of the articles date back to the nineties, some are more recent. But they're all excellent reflections and defenses of Eastern tradition(s) in Byzantine Catholic churches.

One of the articles I found particularly enlightening was the one titled Differences (found on the page's outline under the main heading "Our History of the Byzantine Catholic Church"). The author does a great job of highlighting (especially in the final two paragraphs) both the value and importance of maintaining Eastern liturgical, theological, and spiritual traditions, particularly as they relate to the mission of Eastern Catholic churches to broker unity with the Eastern Orthodox.

Last edited by Jeremiah; 08/08/14 07:56 AM.
Re: Greek Orthodox to Byzantine Catholic [Re: The young fogey] #407422 08/08/14 08:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by The young fogey
I contend that choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism is idolizing Easternness, even if only implicitly; it's their logical conclusion based on their premise.

This doesn't make sense, even grammatically. (Note: I don't like grammar police, and certainly don't like to be one myself, but I have to make an exception here.) You say "their premise" so presumably you also meant "Their choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism" (as opposed to propounding some grand Stephen-Hawkings-ish theory of "choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism" in general) but that would not entirely solve the problem, because it would still leave the question: Who?

But to add my own thoughts about "choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism" I would ask:couldn't one just as easily say "choosing (Eastern) Orthodoxy over Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Calvinism, and Pentecostalism"? I'm not saying that "choosing Orthodoxy over Catholicism" is an incorrect phrase exactly, but it does make it sound like a person has a particular interest in not-being-Catholic.

Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3