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Slavonic anaphora 2004 #407437 08/08/14 12:15 PM
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While looking for some photos on my old computer, I came across this video clip of my late father, Father Stephen Dutko, serving a Slavonic Liturgy at St. Michael's Carpatho Russian Orthodox Church in Binghamton, NY on his 61st Ordination anniversary in 2004. It may have been the last time a full (more or less) Slavonic liturgy was served there. As you can hear, the responses are limited to the cantor (me) in contrast to the vibrant English language responses heard in the more recent postings I have shared. Brings back memories though...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VlIbOCUJoY&list=UUxUNL7NYaIegagxPUfY0Y2A

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407438 08/08/14 12:24 PM
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Beautiful. This is the preface that starts the anaphora. Years ago I blogged a clip of him at the consecration at Liturgy: a chasuble with a Latin cross like many of ours in the traditional Roman Rite, as in this clip, Slavonic in a Rusyn accent as here, and the sanctus bell, which came from us, as you can hear at the end here.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: The young fogey] #407439 08/08/14 12:52 PM
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My dad and the clergy of his generation were born and raised as Greek Catholics. They viewed themselves until the ends of their long service as 'Orthodox Greek Catholics'. (In my mind I can still hear the late Father John Dolhy explaing that forcefully with a smile.) This is not in the sense that some view themselves as 'Orthodox in union with Rome' but the reverse - 'Greek Catholics in union with Constantinople.' Over time the meaning of that distinction has faded away and we are simply Orthodox..but I fondly remember the old days.
(The chimes are long gone, but for Pascha when they ring incessently during the first Christ is Risen's!)

Last edited by DMD; 08/08/14 12:53 PM.
Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407441 08/08/14 01:00 PM
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Of course; we've talked about that before. I appreciate those gentlemen's polemic-free honesty. They were pushed out of the church for no good reason.

Reminds me of growing up after Vatican II when that made the mother church inhospitable to traditionalists. I happened to have been born Episcopalian because my father left the church (he came back in the end; unlike me, he liked Vatican II), so I discovered, nay, fell in love with traditional Catholicism at a place that technically wasn't Catholic! (Or ex-Catholic.) It was an Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parish, now closed, with practices just like the Roman Catholics before the council. So you can say at one point in my life I was an Anglican Roman Catholic, a Roman Catholic in communion with Canterbury.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407450 08/08/14 10:10 PM
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Dear DMD,

In fact, "Greek Catholic" at one point meant "Orthodox" in a number of circles insofar as the "Greek Rule" meant the Orthodox Church.

In addition, hierarchs like Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, wishing to unite as many Galician and Bykovinian EC's to Orthodoxy as possible, tended to underline the "Orthodoxy" of the Greek Catholics, that they were Orthodox in so many respects already and just needed a bit of a nudge to go all the way etc. In other words, if losing the moniker "Greek Catholic" would upset potential converts, then it could/should stay.

But I've seen Orthodox prayerbooks from over 100 years ago that only use the designation "Greek Catholic."

Alex

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: The young fogey] #407451 08/08/14 10:16 PM
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Dear Serge,

Not quite. Not only Anglo-Catholics, but Catholics of the British Isles as a whole disliked the term "Roman Catholic."

RC's in Britain used "English Catholic" as a way to show their compatriots their loyalty to the Crown etc. and that they were not ultramontanists with a specific agenda.

Bl. John Henry Newman and others of his previous Anglo-Catholic ilk like John Keble defended their use of Catholic ritual not as having embraced "cultural Roman Catholicism" but as having returned to the traditions of the pre-Reformation English Church.

They made every effort to present such religious practices as having an Ehglish foundation, quite independent of Roman influence.

Alex

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407452 08/08/14 10:51 PM
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Both "Greek Catholic" and "Roman Catholic" have interesting histories.

For many Carpatho-Russians, "Greek Catholic" wasn't so much about being Catholic as po-našemu ("po nashomu"), "our thing," which happens to have lots of traditional Roman Rite things in it. Which is what gentlemen like Msgr. Dutko meant by being "Orthodox Greek Catholics." Not so much that they missed us, though I like to think so, but that they were about defending their culture, a culture that was a good thing. Ani do Rimu, ani do Moskvi: they didn't want to be russified as happened to ex-Uniates in the Russian Church. The Greeks leave them in peace.

The Russian Church in America, the Metropolia now the OCA, used the term (the Metropolia's official name was the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church) for a couple of reasons: their true-church claim ("WE are the real Catholics") and because using it bettered their chances of keeping ex-Uniate churches in court cases, because those churches' charters have the term. I imagine that helped ACROD, then ACROGCD (maybe it officially still is), in their property battles too.

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Catholics of the British Isles as a whole disliked the term "Roman Catholic."

That sounds about right. Since Vatican II, the term's become a badge of honor for some Catholics, of following the magisterium and not local dissenters. But it was originally an Anglican putdown. Because the Anglicans saw themselves as THE legitimate Catholic church in England, by law and "reformed" to conform more to the church fathers; they saw us as a branch of the church with true bishops (they have to: they split from us but claim apostolic succession, gotten from us) but believed we are in grave error. Today, "we're Catholics too" has many Anglicans calling us "the Roman Church" or "the Romans," which offends me. Not that I'm ashamed of being Roman Rite or that the church includes Italian culture, but the venom of "you're foreign; go home." ("This is our country. You're just visiting.")

A correction to your timeline: Newman and the Tractarians didn't care about ceremonial, as in trying to revive pre-"Reformation" practice or copying then-contemporary Catholic practice, other than conscientiously following the Book of Common Prayer: Communion services with the priest in surplice and scarf. As an Anglican, Newman was never a "ritualist." That happened in Anglicanism later. The Tractarians were about high theology, high ecclesiology: the church as divinely instituted, as opposed to merely a branch of the state.

The generation of Anglo-Catholics after them was interested in reviving pre-"Reformation" Catholic ceremonial but using the BCP, much as you describe: trying to be THE English Catholicism; "we don't need Rome, which is in grave error." "An English foundation."

The generation after them copied then-contemporary Catholic practice; you started to see Anglo-Papalism in England. They were what most thought Anglo-Catholics were: wannabe Catholics, who wanted union with Rome. This is what I saw at All Saints', Orange, New Jersey, in the early '80s, as the priest, trained in the '40s, had helped make it. 15-20 years after Vatican II, but intact then, because it wasn't under the Archdiocese of Newark: Episcopalian semi-congregationalism had kept it traditional, even though the Episcopal Church famously skews liberal.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407467 08/09/14 06:58 PM
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"Greek Catholic" was included in the name of the Metropolia also to aid in establishing some kind of legal precedence in court cases where the Greek Catholic diocese would sue to return property that had gone to the Orthodox.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: Mark R] #407480 08/09/14 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R
"Greek Catholic" was included in the name of the Metropolia also to aid in establishing some kind of legal precedence in court cases where the Greek Catholic diocese would sue to return property that had gone to the Orthodox.

I already said that above.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: The young fogey] #407647 08/15/14 11:13 PM
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The term was originally coined for Ruthenians (Ukrainians and Belarusyans) by the Austro-Hungarian empire which, in turn, took it from the practice of the Polish Kingdom.

The term "Catholic" itself in Ukraine and elsewhere in the 17th century onwards simply implied one was Polish and Roman Catholic.

The term "Orthodox" in the same areas meant one was of Rus' or East Slavic. The terms were never limited to just religion.

Over time in the diaspora, Ukrainian Catholics called themselves just that and dropped the "Greek" (the Ukrainian Greek-Orthodox Church of Canada also dropped the "Greek" despite the fact that their Metropolitan Ilarion strongly defended its continued inclusion as a way to indicate the Church's relationship with Byzantine faith and culture).

However, after the comeback of the EC Church in Ukraine in the early 1990's, the term "Greek Catholic" was restored to the Church in Ukraine, mainly for two reasons: There was now a Ukrainian Latin Catholic church made up of those Ukrainians who entered the RC Church after the "synod" of 1946 when the UGCC went underground.

The second reason was that the UGCC properties that the ROC had taken over after 1946 were all registered under the title, "Ukrainian Greek Catholic" so the continued use of that name took on a legal imperative in the Church's ongoing attempts to regain property it considered was stolen from it.

Alex

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: The young fogey] #407648 08/15/14 11:26 PM
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Dear Serge,

Yes, I never said Newman was a Ritualist - and he clearly was not concerned with the same issues that a James DeKoven and others like him would be (and who would suffer terribly under their own hierarchy for).

For me, the enduring value of Bl. John H. Newman's ecumenical contribution was that he brilliantly examined the background of a number of aspects of Protestantism to show how they were but a reaction to certain views and practices of the RC Church of the day and NOT necessarily an outright denial of historic Catholic dogma.

Not to mention his enduring and deep attachment to his own Anglican heritage, Lancelot Andrewes' Preces Privatae which he kept by his bedside always and his picture of King Charles the Martyr which hung to the side of his private home altar, to name but two.

It was the convert Ronald Knox who would take the next step to formally petition Rome to canonise King Charles I and King Henry VI (he continued to attend Anglican services honouring King Charles I even after his becoming Catholic). Roman Catholic priests like Fr. Charles Roux would even write articles (one of which is formally used by the Society of King Charles the Martyr) to promote the King's canonization. It was one pope whose name escapes me at this hour who once referred to the Anglicanism of "Charles and Laud."

Although accused of persecuting Catholics, Charles was actually a king with no power over the parliament that did the persecuting and which would eventually behead him.

Certainly, the Catholic Royalists of his day did not see him as inimical to Rome and the SKCM has evidence of private veneration of King Charles by RC's of his day.

A tangent but a favourite one of mine.

Alex

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #407649 08/16/14 07:24 AM
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Yes, I never said Newman was a Ritualist.

Sed contra:

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Bl. John Henry Newman and others of his previous Anglo-Catholic ilk like John Keble defended their use of Catholic ritual...

Was that you or did somebody log in with your byzcath account?

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In addition, hierarchs like Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, wishing to unite as many Galician and Bukovinian EC's to Orthodoxy as possible, tended to underline the "Orthodoxy" of the Greek Catholics, that they were Orthodox in so many respects already and just needed a bit of a nudge to go all the way etc. In other words, if losing the moniker "Greek Catholic" would upset potential converts, then it could/should stay.

One must verify such claims but interesting all the same.

My guess is, while not as hardened against schism as the Greek Catholics were when Communism or the schisms in America made them emphasize their Catholic identity afterwards, historically the Greek Catholics had self-latinized so much that they weren't as amenable to schism as you suggest. I've seen an account in Ukrainian of a village, in the 18th or 19th century, that was martyred under tsarist persecution when Russia took over some Polish territory of the Ukraine. (Chełm/Холм, now back in Poland.)

The first Eastern Christians I knew well were Ukrainian Catholic exiles who came here right after World War II so their mentality wasn't really formed by Soviet persecution but their culture before the war. You could call them Ukrainian Catholics, Uniates, or Roman Catholics (them: "We're also Roman Catholic," meaning they went to the Roman Rite parish where they lived), but most emphatically not Orthodox.

So maybe the Orthodox such as ROCOR's founder did some (quasi) "false-flag" operations over in Galicia and Bukovina, and elsewhere in Ruthenia (I know they proselytized there when ROCOR moved there, between World Wars I and II), and maybe they did here to foment parish defections and splits from "the Unia." Taking advantage of the Toth schism. I know the Russian diocese here then was a mission funded by the tsar with that - snagging Greek Catholics in the aftermath of Toth - as one of its goals. (And yes, in many ways Toth was a victim. John Ireland started that schism. But Toth was still wrong. Same with Orestes Chornock and the 1930s schism. Our churchmen started it, for no good reason.)

To be fair, we can be accused of something similar: the first Russian Catholics converted on their own, but the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, chartered by St. Pius X, arguably was ambiguous/disingenuous with the Russians about its real affiliation (not much point in lying, though, if your goal is to teach the truth about the Pope and the Universal Church), going so far as allowing the faithful to commune at the Orthodox to infiltrate them. We don't do that anymore, which is likely a good thing. Making the Orthodox distrust us won't help toward our goal of reconciling them to us. Actually, we err in the other direction in Russia, maybe out of necessity in that authoritarian, de facto Orthodox country where we are at best guests: the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church there is so low-profile (it's tiny) it's undersupported by us.

The French Assumptionists' failed mission in Greece might be seen that way too: the founding of the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church. Though I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't lie.

Reminds me of mainline Protestants' "Hispanic outreach." A while back in Chicago a pastor of the liberal Lutheran denomination rightly got into some trouble because he wasn't telling Mexican visitors his church isn't Catholic, so some of them left the church without knowing it (chalk that up under "God understands": sin requires sufficient reflection and full consent of the will, so they didn't really leave us).

The Episcopalians tried to do that with Italian immigrants, snagging a few independent parishes formed when parishes had fights: St. Rocco's (whose feast is today) in Youngstown, Ohio, for example. Undersuccessful in the long run. (Same reason they supported the Polish National Catholic Church; they were an affiliate of the Episcopalians for many years.)

No again to King Charles. Just like the Orthodox, we don't canonize Protestants.

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: The young fogey] #407650 08/16/14 10:11 AM
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Good morning Serge!

Again, there is a distinction to be drawn between "Ritualists" who were a special party within High Church Anglicanism (like DeKoven, Edward King et alia) and the "use of Catholic ritual" which, as in the case of Keble and others had to do with things like going back to genuflecting, devotion to the Blessed Sacrament, the use of crucifixes, the Sign of the Cross, fasting etc. And no, no one has taken over my password. smile

As for King Charles, certainly if Rome allowed the Ordinariate to liturgically venerate him and the others that have "spontaneously" received a local saint's cultus, I believe that would be a good thing.

Charles was "High Church" and was not a "Protestant" by today's standards. He venerated images, as did William Laud, bowed his head at the mention of the Names of Jesus and Mary, and otherwise tended to follow continental Catholic devotional practice (very much after his RC queen). He believed himself to be a Catholic (as he told the Jesuits who conversed with him).

Certainly, Cromwell and his cronies believed Charles to have been a secret "papist" and his widow personally venerated him after his execution/martyrdom. Let's await the word from Rome on this as the Ordinariate leaders have submitted this matter to the Pope to decide on.

As is stated in the Forward of "A Biographical Dictionary of the Saints" the Catholic Church allowed various other groups to keep their own saints/worthies after they came to the Church, including Arians, Semi-Arians, anti-popes, and all manner of heretics and schismatics.

"Furthermore, it is difficult to draw the line between Catholic and non-Catholic saints . . . Stadler's great Lexicon of Saints, perhaps inadvertently, contains hosts of heretical and schismatic saints. Some have crept even in official Roman Martyrology. S. Nicetas, the Goth, S. Sabas the Goth, S. Elpidius the Courtier, St Artemius the Dux Augustalis of Egype and others were Arians. The great S Lucian of Antioch is the founder of the system which afterwards found expression in the heresy of Arius. St Elesbaan, the Hymerite Marturs with their leader Aretas and Eutychis of Carrhae were Monophysites. S. Flavian II of Anticoh and Elias of Jerusalem had signed the Henoticon of Emperor Zeno and died in exile under excommnication. Achatius of Amida was a Nestorian. Stilil they are all to be found in the Roman Martyrology. The gallant battle which they fought for Christ and their glorious triumph caused the ancient Church to overlook the defect of their orthodoxy. Besides, of the Saints of Syria, Russia, Abyssynia etc. many were orthodox, i.e. Catholic, but are venerated only by the heretical or schismatic religious bodies of their home countries."

So Saint Charles, King and Martyr is really a "pussycat" by comparison to all these!

And I prefer a High Church Protestant to an Arian any day . . . wink

But you will recognize St Charles if Rome does, right? smile

Alex

Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407667 08/18/14 10:21 AM
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Serge

A reminder, it is the long-standing policy of this forum that references to hierarchs and clergy of all the Apostolic Churches include proper titling, in respect of their office and ordination.

Thus, "Toth", "John Ireland", and "Orestes Chornock" are unacceptable usages; Father Alexis Toth, Father Toth or St Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, Archbishop John Ireland, Bishop Orestes Chornock are acceptable.


Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Slavonic anaphora 2004 [Re: DMD] #407668 08/18/14 10:33 AM
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Passive-aggressive.

I was even-handed, using short versions for both sides.

Understood.

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