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#407643 08/15/14 03:03 PM
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I know the use of the Rosary in Eastern Churches is, shall we say, problematic. Question: Has anyone ever tried putting together an Eastern Rosary, one that would highlight texts from the East? I am aware of one done in private w/o (so far) any ecclesiastical approval.

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Originally Posted by 2lungsambassador
I know the use of the Rosary in Eastern Churches is, shall we say, problematic. Question: Has anyone ever tried putting together an Eastern Rosary, one that would highlight texts from the East? I am aware of one done in private w/o (so far) any ecclesiastical approval.

Yes. I've seen a rosary pamphlet in Ukrainian, maybe from 50 or 60 years ago, that did that. Same mysteries as the regular Roman Rite rosary but substituting the trisagion prayers and Nicene Creed (if I recall rightly) for the beginning prayers, and using the Byzantine wording of the Hail Mary. I forget how it ended, maybe with "Dostojno Jest'" (It Is Truly Proper).

The Ruthenian Greek Catholics I knew 20 years ago used the Roman Rite Hail Mary.

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Apart from the use of the Byzantine Hail Mary as opposed to the Roman Rite version with the invocation approved by St Pius V at the end, the psalter of the Mother of God or the Rule of the Theotokos is the same - 150 Hail Mary's divided into decades with a set of 15 themes for meditation which are somewhat different in the East (as devised by St Seraphim of Sarov and St Seraphim Zvezdinsky).

But the use of the Western Mysteries by EC's and Orthodox are . . . just fine.

The Rosary really shouldn't be recited in Church in Eastern Catholic Churches (where that obtains, I wouldn't be rushing to prevent the people or otherwise upset them). The Rosary is a private devotion which can also be recited by groups (as the Orthodox nuns of Diveyevo do daily as they circle their monastery along the holy ditch - they even sing the Hail Mary's together as a choir on feastdays such as the Dormition).

The addition of Eastern prayers is OK, but unnecessary as the essence of the prayer is the recitation of the 15 decades (a term also used by Russian Orthodox prayerbooks) in honour of 15 mysteries of the life of Christ and the Theotokos.

Personally, I think we can get overworked over details which, although they give an Eastern framework to the devotion, are really insignificant because this is a personal, not a liturgical, prayer.

Alex


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Originally Posted by 2lungsambassador
I know the use of the Rosary in Eastern Churches is, shall we say, problematic. Question: Has anyone ever tried putting together an Eastern Rosary, one that would highlight texts from the East? I am aware of one done in private w/o (so far) any ecclesiastical approval.


I am aware of the one that was promoted by the Basilians: link.

I am not sure what you mean by the rosary being problematic in the Eastern Churches. If you mean by supplanting akathists or molebens, then I can understand. The rosary though is a popular private devotion which has benefited countless Eastern Catholics, including saving their lives:

Quote
"You'll freeze to death!"
from an interview with Maria Bashynska
When I was in Siberia, once they told us this story : there were three sisters there in the prison, and they were bitterly persecuted because they prayed. And the commandant who was in charge there, well, he was something awful. He wanted them to stop praying, and he wanted them to renounce their faith. Let me tell you, it wasn't going to happen! So, he separated them and put each one in a different room for a few days. But they didn't stop. Then he said to them: "It'll be 60 degrees below zero, you'll go out in the cold and you'll freeze to death!"
One day the temperature dropped to 60 below. The soldiers were bundled up in heavy leather coats and boots and winter hats. They brought the sisters out into the barracks yard, barefoot and in shirt-sleeves and ordered all the prisoners out to watch the nuns freeze to death. The prisoners came out to watch. There were dogs near the soldiers, three dogs.
The commandant swore that in half an hour they would freeze to death. The sisters knelt down to pray the rosary. Half an hour passed. They didn't freeze. They continued kneeling and all three prayed loudly. Then he set the dogs on them to devour them. The dogs rushed up to them, circling around the sisters. But then they lay down in the snow and wagged their tails. They didn't do anything bad to the sisters; they cuddled up to the sisters.
Everyone could see that the dogs weren't going to do anything to them, and the prisoners started to shout and sing "Praise be to God!" When the prisoners began to sing, the guards told the sisters: "Go back to your cell." The sisters went back, and they never had any more trouble, and from that day on they prayed with the people as much as they wanted.
Maria Bashynska (Sr. Markiya, SSMI) was born in 1917 in the village of Hutysko, Zhovka District, Lviv Region.
(File P-1-1-215)

Source: http://www.ugcc.org.ua/33.0.html?&L=2




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Originally Posted by griego catolico

I am aware of the one that was promoted by the Basilians: link.

That's the one I saw the pamphlet for.

Originally Posted by griego catolico
... The rosary though is a popular private devotion which has benefited countless Eastern Catholics, including saving their lives:

Quote
"You'll freeze to death!"
from an interview with Maria Bashynska...


And stories like that are partly why I say mother church offers both the unlatinized and latinized forms of the Byzantine Rite. She doesn't force you to hate one to love the other.

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Originally Posted by The young fogey
And stories like that are partly why I say mother church offers both the unlatinized and latinized forms of the Byzantine Rite. She doesn't force you to hate one to love the other.


That latinized forms of the Byzantine and Oriental Rites exist is contrary to the expressed intent of several popes, most recently HH Benedict.

Serge,

Your continued posting in support of a latinized Byzantine Rite is getting more than tiresome, particularly as it is being directed to an audience that has no love for nor any interest in such - a view that has been expressed thousands of times over the years here.

Enough is enough! The number of threads locked here in recent weeks as a consequence of your echolalic commentary has become unacceptable and I'm getting tired of being polite about it.

Find meaningful topics of discussion in which to engage. If you want to blither incessantly about the spiritual succor that you find in latinized versions of the Eastern and Oriental Rites or to warn naive Latins and ECs/OCs of the dangers to their souls that arise from associating too closely, theologically, spiritually, liturgically, or otherwise with their Orthodox brethren, do so on your nickel - at your blog - or open your own forum with appropriate safeguards to save Catholics and Orthodox from one another - or go to CAF, where such an attitude is more than welcome.

Many years,

Neil

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 08/21/14 11:10 PM. Reason: correct CA to CAF

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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You're beating up a strawman, pal. As I've repeatedly written, I also support the unlatinized form and friendly contacts with the Orthodox. I don't support relativism being passed off as the teaching of our church.

What's interesting is the contrast of your attitude to the born Ukrainian Catholics I've known in real life, for example. Such as the man whose clean-shaven, Latin-cassocked priest grandfather was shot to death by Nazis.

So is this disdain what you feel for many born Greek Catholics? "Too dumb" to follow the tradition you know so much better than they?

Reminds me of the white New Age Indian wannabe who went to a Indian gathering and told a surviving Indian holy man he was doing it all wrong. The Indians set him straight; I doubt he could see straight for a while afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
...or go to CA, where such an attitude is more than welcome.


Woah shocked , Neil, where did that come from?!

As a Californian who likes his Divine Liturgies without latinizations and who associates and works with Orthodox Christians in ecumenical projects, I can assure you we Catholics and Orthodox get along with each other very well in the Golden State.

God bless,

GC

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As a Californian


I believe Neil was referring to Catholic Answers (CA) Forum and not our great (well it use to be) State of California.

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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
As a Californian


I believe Neil was referring to Catholic Answers (CA) Forum and not our great (well it use to be) State of California.


Aaah. OK. Ha, ha. Thank you for the clarification. Had it been written as CAF, then I would have understood.

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I personally use St Seraphim's truncated Rule of the Theotokos.

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
As a Californian


I believe Neil was referring to Catholic Answers (CA) Forum and not our great (well it use to be) State of California.


Aaah. OK. Ha, ha. Thank you for the clarification. Had it been written as CAF, then I would have understood.


You're right, gentlemen, not sure why I didn't use CAF - I've corrected that.

Many years,

Neil


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Re. my original question: The recent comments on the thread underscore my point about the problematic nature of use of a Western devotion in the East. But why does this have to be? I am not talking about an "agenda." In my own case when I was Orthodox I prayed the Jesus Prayer using a chotki/komboskini. Now as a Latin Catholic I pray the Rosary, and for me it has been a key to spiritual growth. I understand about the desire to keep one's worship "authentic," but borrowing is a fact of life. Many feast days began in one part of the Christian world and were only adopted by other parts later. I find it disheartening that there is an attitude of faux tradition in far too much of the East-West dialogue--the idea of "Holy Russia," for instance. The Russians frequently borrowed from the West and their Tradition developed in its own way (Remember the Old Ritualists/Believers?) Somewhere between the Old Calendarist position and the false spirit of Vatican II there must be a healthy balance of maintaining tradition while developing in an organic way.

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I think you hit on the key issue when you mention "developing in an organic way". So much of the Latinization that has happened over the years was not organic ... indeed, sometimes it was flat-out imposed. (ultramontanism might also be called "the key issue".)

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I gave up praying the rosary and substituted the Jesus Prayer and chanting akathists in its place.

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