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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by The young fogey
And stories like that are partly why I say mother church offers both the unlatinized and latinized forms of the Byzantine Rite. She doesn't force you to hate one to love the other.


That latinized forms of the Byzantine and Oriental Rites exist is contrary to the expressed intent of several popes, most recently HH Benedict.

Serge,

Your continued posting in support of a latinized Byzantine Rite is getting more than tiresome, particularly as it is being directed to an audience that has no love for nor any interest in such - a view that has been expressed thousands of times over the years here.

Enough is enough! The number of threads locked here in recent weeks as a consequence of your echolalic commentary has become unacceptable and I'm getting tired of being polite about it.

Find meaningful topics of discussion in which to engage. If you want to blither incessantly about the spiritual succor that you find in latinized versions of the Eastern and Oriental Rites or to warn naive Latins and ECs/OCs of the dangers to their souls that arise from associating too closely, theologically, spiritually, liturgically, or otherwise with their Orthodox brethren, do so on your nickel - at your blog - or open your own forum with appropriate safeguards to save Catholics and Orthodox from one another - or go to CAF, where such an attitude is more than welcome.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, thanks for posting this.

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I concur.

As far as problems with borrowing, not really. I think Peter hit it, on the head. It has to be organic, and integrate well with the totality of the patrimony in question, on a liturgical level. I know of an Eastern Catholic who exhorts to pray the Rosary because Fatima said so, however..

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There is neither an opposition between the rosary and the Prayer of the Heart nor are they convertible/interchangeable. Venerable Father Seraphim the Wonderworker of Sarov achieved the heights of sanctity through the Jesus Prayer (told on an Old Believer style lestovka) and at the same time encouraged his spiritual children to fulfill daily the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God (молитвенное правило Богородицы Девы). Тhe nuns and pilgrims at Diveyevo observe this prayer rule tо this day, reciting the Angelic Salutation one hundred fifty times, meditating on the All-holy's life and praying for various intentions, while making the circuit of the Culvert of the Mother of God (святая канавка Богородицы). However all (nuns, clergy, pilgrims) are equally assiduous in praying publicly the Moliebny and Akafisty. The objection that Orthodox-in- communion-with-Rome have is that Latin devotional forms have tended to displace authentically Eastern practices (e.g., the rosary instead of the Hours before Divine Liturgy).

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This is what I had in mind: A rosary using liturgical texts (tropar/kondaks mostly) from some of the Great feasts. They all concern Mary, but all point to Jesus.

Rosary of the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
(Byzantine Rosary)

Opening Supplications: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
In repentance let us miserable sinners run in haste to Our Lady the Theotokos, falling at her feet and fervently entreating her from our soul’s depths: Help and have compassion on us, O Lady, because we are drowning in our many sins. Do not turn us away in our despair, for you are the only hope of your servants (Troparion of the Paraklesis).

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

More honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim. Without corruption you gave birth to God the Word and are truly Theotokos, we magnify you! (Three times.)

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
The First Marian Mystery, The Nativity of Our Lady: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Mary was born to the devout and barren Joachim and Anne in response to their supplications to Almighty God, Who was pleased to prepare a pure tabernacle for His Beloved Son.
Our Father…Hail Mary (times ten)…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: Your Nativity, O Mother of God, heralded joy to the whole universe, for from you rose the Sun of Justice, Christ our God. Taking away the curse, He imparted the blessings, and by abolishing death, He gave us everlasting life (Troparion of the Nativity of the Theotokos).
The Second Marian Mystery, Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Joachim and Anne, to fulfill their promise to the Lord, brought their daughter Mary to the temple to be enrolled as a consecrated virgin. God was preparing a new Ark of the Covenant to hold the Promised One in purity.
Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: The most pure Temple of our Holy Savior, and the most precious and bright bridal chamber, the Virgin, sacred treasury of the glory of God, openly appears today in the Temple of the Lord, bringing with her the grace of the Most Holy Spirit. Wherefore the angels of God are singing: "This is the heavenly Tabernacle." (Troparion of the Entrance of the Theotokos).
The Third Marian Mystery, The Annunciation of the Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary: Let us call to mind in this mystery how the Angel Gabriel, sent from God, speaks to the Virgin Mary and--calling her “full of grace”—offers her the choice of becoming Mother of Our Savior. Her “yes” is the example par excellence of how we should respond in love to God’s entreaties.

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: Today is the beginning of our salvation and the revelation of the Mystery that has been planned from all eternity: the Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin, and Gabriel announces this grace. Let us join him in crying out to the Mother of God "Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Troparion of the Feast of the Annunciation).

The Fourth Marian Mystery, The Nativity of Our Lord God, and Savior Jesus Christ in the Flesh: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Our Lady gave birth in a stable to her Son Who was and is both God and Man. Let us join the heavenly chorus and sing “Christ is born. Glorify Him!”

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…

Let us pray: Today the Virgin gives birth to the One who surpasses all essences, and the earth offers a cave to God, the Inaccessible One. Angels sing His glory together with the shepherds, for unto us is born a Child who is God from all eternity (Kontakion of the Feast of the Nativity).

The Fifth Marian Mystery, The Falling Asleep of Our Lady, the Most Holy Theotokos: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Our Lady, her earthly life come to an end, was raised to the heavens body and soul, there to be crowned Queen Mother by her Son Christ the King. Let us entreat her for her intercessions that we may confidently face the end of our own life with her as our model of faithfulness.

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…

Let us pray: In giving birth you have preserved your virginity, and in falling asleep you did not forsake the world, O Mother of God. You have passed to life, being the Mother of Life. Through your intercession, save our souls from death. (Troparion of the Dormition).

Concluding Prayer: O Jesus our Savior, deliver us from error and temptation and the evil one. Accept the Theotokos who intercedes for us without ceasing: for she is Thy Mother and has power to entreat Thee (Theotokion of Small Compline of Wednesday in Holy Week).

[Meditations by Gregory Cook. As of 8/15/2014 this rosary does not have approval from any ecclesiastical authority.]

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I don't see why the Rule of the Theotokos, as it stands, can't be used, or why it shouldn't be used.

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I agree that the Rosary by itself should not be seen as a threat, but I would share the alarm at it displacing liturgical devotions like the chanting of the Hours before DL. The Rosary should complement or supplement, not replace what is naturally part of an Eastern rite.

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There are several versions of the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God. Just so it doesn't displace the Hours or other Liturgical Offices (Akathists or Moliebens) I can't see any objection to it. Quite to the contrary!

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On a related note, this may interest you:

I know of a Roman Catholic parish that has begun praying the akathist to Our Lady of the Inexhaustible Cup on a regular basis for its parishioners who suffer from addictions. Since it began a year ago, parishioners have reported healings, people achieving sobriety after years of struggle, and reconciliation in marriages.

The parish has now added the akathist to Our Lady, Queen of All, for its parishioners suffering from cancer.

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
On a related note, this may interest you:

I know of a Roman Catholic parish that has begun praying the akathist to Our Lady of the Inexhaustible Cup on a regular basis for its parishioners who suffer from addictions. Since it began a year ago, parishioners have reported healings, people achieving sobriety after years of struggle, and reconciliation in marriages.

The parish has now added the akathist to Our Lady, Queen of All, for its parishioners suffering from cancer.

Thanks for sharing that. Is that in an area without a GC parish?

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Originally Posted by Peter J
I think you hit on the key issue when you mention "developing in an organic way". So much of the Latinization that has happened over the years was not organic ... indeed, sometimes it was flat-out imposed. (ultramontanism might also be called "the key issue".)


Dear Peter,

Latinization was actually never "imposed" by anyone other than EC's themselves. The only thing that was ever historically imposed was the Filioque after the Union of Brest.

Everything else was done by both EC's and also Orthodox. Most of the Latinizations the UGCC has, would you believe, come directly from the ...Orthodox Church of Kyiv and the Kyivan Baroque e.g. St Peter Mohyla, St Dmitri of Rostov and others.

Many of these Latinizations have become so entrenched even in Orthodoxy that they have taken on an air of "our tradition" like the Passia services.

The great Monastery of Diveyevo, where St Seraphim of Sarov's relics are enshrined, prays the Rosary/Rule of the Theotokos daily, where the nuns walk along the ditch surrounding the great monastic complex reciting and/or singing the 150 Hail Mary's every day. St Seraphim of Sarov indicated that the Mother of God herself walks around the monastery every day etc.

St Seraphim of Sarov also said that the Mother of God told him in a special communication that to recite the 150 Hail Mary's of her Rule daily was a practice once done by all Christians, East and West. Also, that the daily recitation of this Rule of 150 Hail Mary's invokes her protection in a way that other, even liturgical services do not i.e. akathists, canons and molebens.

That was what St Seraphim of Sarov left to the nuns by way of legacy and this was told to me by the nun who made me my "Theotokos Lestovka" or a lestovka with 150 smaller steps divided every ten by a larger one.

The Orthodox Church, in fact, has an older and even greater tradition of praying the Rosary/Rule than the West, one could say.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
There are several versions of the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God. Just so it doesn't displace the Hours or other Liturgical Offices (Akathists or Moliebens) I can't see any objection to it. Quite to the contrary!


I like you very much, Father! smile

Alex

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I gave up praying the rosary and substituted the Jesus Prayer and chanting akathists in its place.


Too bad sir!

Alex

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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
There is neither an opposition between the rosary and the Prayer of the Heart nor are they convertible/interchangeable. Venerable Father Seraphim the Wonderworker of Sarov achieved the heights of sanctity through the Jesus Prayer (told on an Old Believer style lestovka) and at the same time encouraged his spiritual children to fulfill daily the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God (молитвенное правило Богородицы Девы). Тhe nuns and pilgrims at Diveyevo observe this prayer rule tо this day, reciting the Angelic Salutation one hundred fifty times, meditating on the All-holy's life and praying for various intentions, while making the circuit of the Culvert of the Mother of God (святая канавка Богородицы). However all (nuns, clergy, pilgrims) are equally assiduous in praying publicly the Moliebny and Akafisty. The objection that Orthodox-in- communion-with-Rome have is that Latin devotional forms have tended to displace authentically Eastern practices (e.g., the rosary instead of the Hours before Divine Liturgy).


Bravo! Bravo!

Alex

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Originally Posted by 2lungsambassador
This is what I had in mind: A rosary using liturgical texts (tropar/kondaks mostly) from some of the Great feasts. They all concern Mary, but all point to Jesus.

Rosary of the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary
(Byzantine Rosary)

Opening Supplications: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
In repentance let us miserable sinners run in haste to Our Lady the Theotokos, falling at her feet and fervently entreating her from our soul’s depths: Help and have compassion on us, O Lady, because we are drowning in our many sins. Do not turn us away in our despair, for you are the only hope of your servants (Troparion of the Paraklesis).

Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

More honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim. Without corruption you gave birth to God the Word and are truly Theotokos, we magnify you! (Three times.)

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
The First Marian Mystery, The Nativity of Our Lady: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Mary was born to the devout and barren Joachim and Anne in response to their supplications to Almighty God, Who was pleased to prepare a pure tabernacle for His Beloved Son.
Our Father…Hail Mary (times ten)…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: Your Nativity, O Mother of God, heralded joy to the whole universe, for from you rose the Sun of Justice, Christ our God. Taking away the curse, He imparted the blessings, and by abolishing death, He gave us everlasting life (Troparion of the Nativity of the Theotokos).
The Second Marian Mystery, Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Joachim and Anne, to fulfill their promise to the Lord, brought their daughter Mary to the temple to be enrolled as a consecrated virgin. God was preparing a new Ark of the Covenant to hold the Promised One in purity.
Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: The most pure Temple of our Holy Savior, and the most precious and bright bridal chamber, the Virgin, sacred treasury of the glory of God, openly appears today in the Temple of the Lord, bringing with her the grace of the Most Holy Spirit. Wherefore the angels of God are singing: "This is the heavenly Tabernacle." (Troparion of the Entrance of the Theotokos).
The Third Marian Mystery, The Annunciation of the Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary: Let us call to mind in this mystery how the Angel Gabriel, sent from God, speaks to the Virgin Mary and--calling her “full of grace”—offers her the choice of becoming Mother of Our Savior. Her “yes” is the example par excellence of how we should respond in love to God’s entreaties.

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…
Let us pray: Today is the beginning of our salvation and the revelation of the Mystery that has been planned from all eternity: the Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin, and Gabriel announces this grace. Let us join him in crying out to the Mother of God "Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Troparion of the Feast of the Annunciation).

The Fourth Marian Mystery, The Nativity of Our Lord God, and Savior Jesus Christ in the Flesh: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Our Lady gave birth in a stable to her Son Who was and is both God and Man. Let us join the heavenly chorus and sing “Christ is born. Glorify Him!”

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…

Let us pray: Today the Virgin gives birth to the One who surpasses all essences, and the earth offers a cave to God, the Inaccessible One. Angels sing His glory together with the shepherds, for unto us is born a Child who is God from all eternity (Kontakion of the Feast of the Nativity).

The Fifth Marian Mystery, The Falling Asleep of Our Lady, the Most Holy Theotokos: Let us call to mind in this mystery how Our Lady, her earthly life come to an end, was raised to the heavens body and soul, there to be crowned Queen Mother by her Son Christ the King. Let us entreat her for her intercessions that we may confidently face the end of our own life with her as our model of faithfulness.

Our Father…Hail Mary…Glory be to the Father…

Let us pray: In giving birth you have preserved your virginity, and in falling asleep you did not forsake the world, O Mother of God. You have passed to life, being the Mother of Life. Through your intercession, save our souls from death. (Troparion of the Dormition).

Concluding Prayer: O Jesus our Savior, deliver us from error and temptation and the evil one. Accept the Theotokos who intercedes for us without ceasing: for she is Thy Mother and has power to entreat Thee (Theotokion of Small Compline of Wednesday in Holy Week).

[Meditations by Gregory Cook. As of 8/15/2014 this rosary does not have approval from any ecclesiastical authority.]


This is fine, no problem.

The Orthodox tradition of saying this Rule, that comes from St Seraphim of Sarov, always includes the prayer "Open to us the doors of your mercy, O Blessed Theotokos, so that placing our hope on you we may not die, but that we may be saved by you from troubles, for you are the salvation of the Christian people." (My translation, I pray this in a different language).

At Diveyevo, they begin each decade with an Our Father and end with the above prayer.

Alex

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Originally Posted by Lester S
I concur.

As far as problems with borrowing, not really. I think Peter hit it, on the head. It has to be organic, and integrate well with the totality of the patrimony in question, on a liturgical level. I know of an Eastern Catholic who exhorts to pray the Rosary because Fatima said so, however..


All of our Greek Catholic New Martyrs prayed the Rosary and as a private devotion, it should not affect our liturgical praying at all.

Alex

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