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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
While it is certainly right to respect and treat with dignity the Princes of the Church, perhaps there is a lingering memory of one Bishop Ireland still hanging around behind the scenes.

Not necessarily: sometimes it is out in the open. smile

P.S.
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.


DMD,

You're not calling Cardinals Pell and Burke vipers, are you? shocked Please speak of our hierarchs with respect.

To be fair, I've heard far worse comments directed at the Orthodox by Catholic apologists.


Dear Peter the Rock,

But that's different, isn't it? Catholics have the true faith and Orthodox . . . wink

Those apologists have a lot to apologise for, it would seem . . .

Alex

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Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
While it is certainly right to respect and treat with dignity the Princes of the Church, perhaps there is a lingering memory of one Bishop Ireland still hanging around behind the scenes.

Not necessarily: sometimes it is out in the open. smile

P.S.
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.


DMD,

You're not calling Cardinals Pell and Burke vipers, are you? shocked Please speak of our hierarchs with respect.

To be fair, I've heard far worse comments directed at the Orthodox by Catholic apologists.


Do you have any examples you can post? I have never heard of any Catholic apologist speak that way about any Orthodox clergyman.

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Quote
P.S.
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.
DMD,

You're not calling Cardinals Pell and Burke vipers, are you? shocked Please speak of our hierarchs with respect.

To be fair, I've heard far worse comments directed at the Orthodox by Catholic apologists.

Do you have any examples you can post? I have never heard of any Catholic apologist speak that way about any Orthodox clergyman.

It doesn't seem appropriate to post such examples; however, it seems to me the issue here is what I said or didn't say. I.e. I said "worse comments" (they're not hard to find btw on a Catholic discussion forum or most of the Catholic blogs devoted to polemics against the Orthodox) not venom specifically.

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Venom is in the eyes of the beholder. I would posit that someone like James Likoudis for example is so eager to establish his Latin Rite street 'cred' that in addition to gleefully being willing to skewer his former faith, he has no use for Eastern Catholics apologists in union with the Holy See who try to remain faithful to the patrimony of the Eastern fathers. Here is a great example of the same found in a passionate Eastern Catholic rebuttal of likouodis..."In Defense of the Catholic Church Against the Polemics of James Likoudis" http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-defense-of-catholic-church-against.html

But this discourse is rather pointless and non-productive. In the heat of debate sometimes words are used which are double-edged and not really meant to be taken literally. To the extent that one of you took my admitedly inartful choice of words literally, I would submit that the problem lies within your own perception of things.

If you are really looking for a fight, hop over to a certain other forum where a fellow banned here would no doubt love to lather you with objectional epithets and maps. As for me, I have better use for my time.

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Originally Posted by DMD
If you are really looking for a fight, hop over to a certain other forum where a fellow banned here would no doubt love to lather you with objectional epithets and maps. As for me, I have better use for my time.

Does said person have a grudge against Latins? whistle

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A bit of retained Lutheranism I suppose!

I realize that 'shredded with venom' is not my style but I read the term somewhere on Father Z's blog and it stuck in my mind...He was directing it inwardly against the supporters of Cardinal Kasper...

I guess it's like the use of certain words by rappers...they can get away with them but....


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Originally Posted by DMD
If you are really looking for a fight, hop over to a certain other forum where a fellow banned here would no doubt love to lather you with objectional epithets and maps.


Oh, puh-leeze. A ridiculous thing to say, even from you. smile

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Originally Posted by DMD
I realize that 'shredded with venom' is not my style but I read the term somewhere on Father Z's blog and it stuck in my mind...He was directing it inwardly against the supporters of Cardinal Kasper...

I didn't see that, specifically ... But I'm familiar with things said about Cardinal Kasper in general. blush

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Originally Posted by DMD
I realize that 'shredded with venom' is not my style but I read the term somewhere on Father Z's blog and it stuck in my mind...He was directing it inwardly against the supporters of Cardinal Kasper...


Are you sure it's from Father Z's blog? I have done a word search through his blog using "shredded with venom" and "Kasper" and nothing comes up.

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The Burke-post has this:

Quote
Many of you will be tempted to run in circles squawking about Francis the Disaster, the cross between a Jesuit and South American Dictator.  At the same time the catholic Left will be running in the opposite direction squawking about Francis The Unjudgmental, the first Pope ever to smile or to kiss a baby, the most wonderfullest fluffiest Pope ehvurrr. He’s the only Pope ever to think about mercy!  In doing this, the Left will also manifest their trademark venom. Remember what foaming paroxysms they had when Burke was not reappointed as a member of the Congregation of Bishops?  When he was moved from St. Louis to Rome?  ”Demotion!”, they cried. (Benedict moved him to Rome, by the way, not Francis, and it was a promotion.) So too with the Right!  Francis says something that is – admittedly – strange or impenetrable and trads freak out.

along with two links that I looked at but didn't really read.

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Originally Posted by DMD
Venom is in the eyes of the beholder. I would posit that someone like James Likoudis for example is so eager to establish his Latin Rite street 'cred' that in addition to gleefully being willing to skewer his former faith, he has no use for Eastern Catholics apologists in union with the Holy See who try to remain faithful to the patrimony of the Eastern fathers. Here is a great example of the same found in a passionate Eastern Catholic rebuttal of likouodis..."In Defense of the Catholic Church Against the Polemics of James Likoudis" http://byzantinechesterton.blogspot.com/2012/01/in-defense-of-catholic-church-against.html

But this discourse is rather pointless and non-productive. In the heat of debate sometimes words are used which are double-edged and not really meant to be taken literally. To the extent that one of you took my admitedly inartful choice of words literally, I would submit that the problem lies within your own perception of things.

If you are really looking for a fight, hop over to a certain other forum where a fellow banned here would no doubt love to lather you with objectional epithets and maps. As for me, I have better use for my time.


Very good rebuttal of Likoudis which shows that although he is a "convert" from Greek Orthodoxy, he obviously didn't stay long enough in the Orthodox Church to learn the basics of the theology he purports to attack from a decidedly Latin perspective. But even his Latin perspective falls short in terms of understanding how contemporary RC theology sees St Gregory Palamas, Theosis etc. from the Greek Orthodox tradition.

Likoudis speaks for a narrow branch of Roman Catholicism which not only hasn't progressed in its understanding of Eastern Orthodox theology, but, more critically, REFUSES to progress in such an understanding and chooses, instead, to hold onto old and tired formulations.

Alex

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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
While it is certainly right to respect and treat with dignity the Princes of the Church, perhaps there is a lingering memory of one Bishop Ireland still hanging around behind the scenes.

Not necessarily: sometimes it is out in the open. smile

P.S.
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
Eastern theology and ekonomia will be shredded with venom by the likes of Cardinals Pell and Burke in the coming weeks. Be prepared.


DMD,

You're not calling Cardinals Pell and Burke vipers, are you? shocked Please speak of our hierarchs with respect.

To be fair, I've heard far worse comments directed at the Orthodox by Catholic apologists.


Do you have any examples you can post? I have never heard of any Catholic apologist speak that way about any Orthodox clergyman.


Dear Griego,

In fact, Petet didn't refer to "Orthodox clergymen" but to "Orthodox" in general in the sense of "Orthdooxy" meaning faith and praxis especially.

I've come across the same from RC apologists who "doth apologise too much" and who really have a very poor grounding in Eastern Christian theology.

I don't know why, but it has been my experience that RC writers tend to have a better education in Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and other religions than they do in Eastern Catholicism itself.

Recently, I read a book on the rosary where the RC author gave brilliant expositions of the use of prayer beads in other world religions.

He included barely a paragraph on the use of the prayer rope in the Christian East.

I wrote to him to let him know that I considered that a major failing on his part, given the extensive use of the prayer rope in the Christian East. I sent him footnotes, references etc.

He wrote back saying that he admits he didn't do much research on that topic at all and that he would include the stuff I sent him in a future publication.

My issue is this: Why would a Latin Catholic writer, a doctoral student at that, do more research into non-Christian religions re: prayer beads than into the tradition of the "other lung?"

And this is not the only time I've come across this in Latin authors.

Alex

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It is interesting to see what Cardinal Burke himself said about the Orthodox Church:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-orthodox-church-and-summorum.html

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Originally Posted by G Xuereb
It is interesting to see what Cardinal Burke himself said about the Orthodox Church:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-orthodox-church-and-summorum.html


Thank you, GX, that's a good link.

At the same time, though, I don't want to make more of it than is actually there: the thrust of his speech could be paraphrased "Let me praise the Orthodox for the ways that they are like me."

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From the point of view of the traditionalist Latin critiques of Orthodox marital sacramental theology, particularly as the Orthodox position has been framed by Cardinal Kasper (who still manages to get incorrect the view of second marriages held by the Orthodox), the attacks on the Eastern understanding of 'ekonomia' have been fierce. Whether rightly or wrongly, Cardinal Burke has been squarely thrust into the 'anti' camp as evidenced by a number of his recent writings and his essay in the upcoming book which precipitated our current discussion.

I do respect the Cardinal's concerns for the what he perceives as the gradual degradation of liturgical tradition in the west and his affection for Orthodox liturgical praxis. Likewise, his writings on the spiritual journey we are all attempting to follow are enlightened.

However, as I suspect Alex will concur, he, like many western scholars (and that the Cardinal is for certain) like to look eastward only to pick and choose that about the east which appeals to their own point of view.

As a friend of mine put it in an exchange late last night with me on this subject:

" Neither (the Catholic 'tradionalists' nor the 'liberals') really understand (Orthodox) teaching, they read what they see in the light of their own beliefs and come to two different conclusions. The liberals would like to co-opt our teaching, bastardised as they may present it, in order to cloak it with our legitimacy. The conservatives, on the other hand, are only too happy to react to that and thump their chests about how they're the true Church. These are the people who say that we caved on birth control because we have no Pope to keep us in line.

If they understood our teaching on marriage, I think they would be surprised. For instance, all of them believe that our "second marriage" is not a sacrament, but merely a licence to have sex or something. But it is a sacrament for us, this is very clear in the rite and in the theology. At the same time, we believe that marriage is not broken by death, unlike the West. No RC mind can grapple with that: the indissolubility of marriage even by death and the sacramentality of second unions. It is at once ultra-conservative and high-as-a-kite liberal for them. But there it is. If they understood our teachings, they would never look to us to help them in this unless they were willing to totally redefine the basics".

I think he points out our folly - mine included - in trying to pigeon hole any one theologian, writer, prelate or thinker - east or west - into our own bias and perceptions.

So, I think enough has been said here on the Cardinal. He is a relatively young man, with a brilliant mind and he has much to offer the Christian world for so long as God grants him the strength and ability to do so.

I wish him the best in whatever the Holy Father sees best for him.


Last edited by DMD; 09/19/14 12:58 PM.
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