The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP, Kyrie Eleison
5601 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (The Cub, MalpanaGiwargis), 69 guests, and 415 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,726
Posts411,829
Members5,601
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 5 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408451
09/19/14 10:02 PM
09/19/14 10:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

Well, it seems to me that Latin Catholics get around this by having their cake and eating it too via a very loose system of marriage annulments, even when children are involved.


As my canon law professor would say, "Consent makes the marriage". No consent, no marriage.
It's not the number of children that makes a marriage a sacrament.
I am not saying that the annulment process is perfect. I am just saying what is being taught.




What your canon law professor seems oblivious of is how "consent" can be concocted so as to justify, in Catholic terms, what the rest of the world calls "divorce."

How easy is it for a Catholic couple married for years and with children, and who no longer wish to be married to each other, to come before a "marriage tribunal" and tells it that the conditions of "consent" weren't there.

Your canon law professor should get some courses in real life studies, sir.

Alex

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #408452
09/19/14 10:03 PM
09/19/14 10:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

Well, it seems to me that Latin Catholics get around this by having their cake and eating it too via a very loose system of marriage annulments, even when children are involved.


As my canon law professor would say, "Consent makes the marriage". No consent, no marriage.
It's not the number of children that makes a marriage a sacrament.
I am not saying that the annulment process is perfect. I am just saying what is being taught.


It is the sophistry used to try and prove inability to consent years and children after the fact that bothers many.


Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

What a great man of God you truly are!

Alex

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #408453
09/19/14 10:04 PM
09/19/14 10:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by DMD
From the point of view of the traditionalist Latin critiques of Orthodox marital sacramental theology, particularly as the Orthodox position has been framed by Cardinal Kasper (who still manages to get incorrect the view of second marriages held by the Orthodox), the attacks on the Eastern understanding of 'ekonomia' have been fierce. Whether rightly or wrongly, Cardinal Burke has been squarely thrust into the 'anti' camp as evidenced by a number of his recent writings and his essay in the upcoming book which precipitated our current discussion.

I do respect the Cardinal's concerns for the what he perceives as the gradual degradation of liturgical tradition in the west and his affection for Orthodox liturgical praxis. Likewise, his writings on the spiritual journey we are all attempting to follow are enlightened.

However, as I suspect Alex will concur, he, like many western scholars (and that the Cardinal is for certain) like to look eastward only to pick and choose that about the east which appeals to their own point of view.

As a friend of mine put it in an exchange late last night with me on this subject:

" Neither (the Catholic 'tradionalists' nor the 'liberals') really understand (Orthodox) teaching, they read what they see in the light of their own beliefs and come to two different conclusions. The liberals would like to co-opt our teaching, bastardised as they may present it, in order to cloak it with our legitimacy. The conservatives, on the other hand, are only too happy to react to that and thump their chests about how they're the true Church. These are the people who say that we caved on birth control because we have no Pope to keep us in line.

If they understood our teaching on marriage, I think they would be surprised. For instance, all of them believe that our "second marriage" is not a sacrament, but merely a licence to have sex or something. But it is a sacrament for us, this is very clear in the rite and in the theology. At the same time, we believe that marriage is not broken by death, unlike the West. No RC mind can grapple with that: the indissolubility of marriage even by death and the sacramentality of second unions. It is at once ultra-conservative and high-as-a-kite liberal for them. But there it is. If they understood our teachings, they would never look to us to help them in this unless they were willing to totally redefine the basics".

I think he points out our folly - mine included - in trying to pigeon hole any one theologian, writer, prelate or thinker - east or west - into our own bias and perceptions.

So, I think enough has been said here on the Cardinal. He is a relatively young man, with a brilliant mind and he has much to offer the Christian world for so long as God grants him the strength and ability to do so.

I wish him the best in whatever the Holy Father sees best for him.


Since the East has always been reluctant to limit the Sacraments to the big Seven, it might help to borrow Latin terminology and to think of the second marriage as a sacramental. I think the historic non-crowning, penitential prayers, and penance attached to a second marriage even for widows/widowers in the East shows this and respects the idea of the primacy of the first Marriage


Ukrainian Orthodox used to say that "The first wife is from God, the second from the people and the third wife is from . . . the devil."

Alex

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408454
09/19/14 10:18 PM
09/19/14 10:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by rusynbyz
In my Ruthenian parish, we'd readily state that the couple does not confect the sacrament themselves, but that the sacrament is conveyed by the priest (as in Orthodoxy). Yet simultaneously we'll say that there's nothing wrong with the Latin formulation which definitively states the spouses-to-be are the ministers of the sacrament, not the priest.


The Catechism of the Catholic Church incorporates both:

Quote
1623 According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ's grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses,124 but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.125



Quote
That said, we wouldn't say that marriage is a contractual bond. But we'd also say that the Latin Church might say that it is, not that there's anything wrong with that. Then again, what is taught also varies depending on the background and persuasion of the cleric in question. We'll hear Orthodoxy from some, Latin theology from others.


The Latin Church speaks of marriage as a covenant, not a contractual bond.


Dear Griego Amigo,

In fact, the Catechism demonstrates how much a Latin document it truly is and how much it has missed the mark in understanding the Eastern Christian Mystery of Crowning!

In fact, the questions asked by the priest or bishop of the engaged couple in Church relate to whether there are any impediments to their being crowned in marriage only.

The couple's consent etc. have NOTHING whatever to do with the Mystery itself (as the Catechism appears to affirm). It is the priest or bishop who confers the Mystery/Sacrament on the couple (and the questions can be dropped in any event).

The Catechism refers to this as the "blessing" when it is much more than that in the Mystery of Crowning - it is, once again, the conferral of the Mystery by the priest/bishop on the couple.

The Latin view of marriage where the couple confers the Sacrament on each other does indeed come from the Roman days when a Christian couple had to go before a magistrate to have the marriage ratified and who then went to Church so that the priest/bishop could bless them etc.

The Eastern Churches, happily, expunged that altogether in its praxis. As with all Sacraments/Mysteries in the East, the Mystery of Crowning should always ideally be celebrated on the Lord's Day of His Resurrection, optimally during a Divine Liturgy.

I think that is a much higher and spirituallly more beautiful theology of marriage than what obtains in the West.

Alex


Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: AntonI] #408455
09/19/14 10:27 PM
09/19/14 10:27 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Upstate New York
D
DMD Offline
Member
DMD  Offline
Member
D

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Upstate New York
On a serious, non argumentative note, I wanted to note that in my memory (probably fifty years or so) I can't think of a single "third marriage." Of the several dozens of "second marriages" I can recall, perhaps a dozen or so were involving divorced folks where their first marriage was blessed by the church. (We had a large congregation and I knew about other parishes as my father was always a consulter for the bishop and my brother was seminary Dean for years.) Also,it would be untruthful of me not to note that most of the marriages granted ecclesiastical divorces by us probably would have been annulled by you. So.....

Last edited by DMD; 09/19/14 10:38 PM.
Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #408456
09/19/14 10:30 PM
09/19/14 10:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
G
griego catolico Offline
Member
griego catolico  Offline
Member
G

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
Alex,

Having attended and assisted several times in the Mystery of Crowning, I know very well what you are saying about the Eastern and Latin theologies on marriage.

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #408457
09/20/14 12:05 AM
09/20/14 12:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
G
griego catolico Offline
Member
griego catolico  Offline
Member
G

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Your canon law professor should get some courses in real life studies, sir.


Actually, Alex, considering the type of case studies he would assign, I would say he knew very much about real life.

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: AntonI] #408459
09/20/14 10:58 AM
09/20/14 10:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
G
griego catolico Offline
Member
griego catolico  Offline
Member
G

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,427
Rain drenched California
Originally Posted by DMD
At the same time, we believe that marriage is not broken by death, unlike the West. No RC mind can grapple with that: the indissolubility of marriage even by death...


Is this a teaching of Orthodoxy or simply theological opinion? Doesn't look like it's shared by all EO Churches.

Again, how does this reconcile with what Our Lord says in Scripture?


Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408463
09/20/14 03:55 PM
09/20/14 03:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Alex,

Having attended and assisted several times in the Mystery of Crowning, I know very well what you are saying about the Eastern and Latin theologies on marriage.


Dancing the dance is one thing - knowing the actual lyrics is another.

I tend to see RC marriage rites through the EC lenses myself.

Alex

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408464
09/20/14 03:57 PM
09/20/14 03:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
At the same time, we believe that marriage is not broken by death, unlike the West. No RC mind can grapple with that: the indissolubility of marriage even by death...


Is this a teaching of Orthodoxy or simply theological opinion? Doesn't look like it's shared by all EO Churches.

Again, how does this reconcile with what Our Lord says in Scripture?



DMD is more than correct - we EC's also hold that the marriage bond is spiritually intact after death, even though, of course, someone may marry a second time.

St Paul the Apostle himself counsels Christians who are no longer married, not to seek to get married again.

And of course, Tradition is also part of the deposit of faith, and not only Scripture.

If it were otherwise, we'd all be Protestants!

Alex

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408465
09/20/14 03:59 PM
09/20/14 03:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Your canon law professor should get some courses in real life studies, sir.


Actually, Alex, considering the type of case studies he would assign, I would say he knew very much about real life.


Not to assail him too much, my reaction was only to what you said about "consent" on which he, of course, is perfectly correct.

The Reverend Father Deacon Lance pointed out, also correctly in my view, how "consent" seems to be affirmed within the context of sophistry in today's annulment process.

I hope you don't have any relatives who got their marriages annulled, but I certainly do - and I won't shock anyone here regarding that offensive process which, I believe, yesterday's Church would scarcely recognize as part of age-old Catholic Tradition.

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 09/20/14 04:00 PM.
Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408466
09/20/14 04:19 PM
09/20/14 04:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
California
J
jjp Offline
Member
jjp  Offline
Member
J

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 689
California
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by DMD
At the same time, we believe that marriage is not broken by death, unlike the West. No RC mind can grapple with that: the indissolubility of marriage even by death...


Is this a teaching of Orthodoxy or simply theological opinion? Doesn't look like it's shared by all EO Churches.

Again, how does this reconcile with what Our Lord says in Scripture?



Fr John Meyendorff has written much on this topic, you may find it helpful.

http://www.orthodoxfellowship.net/resources/Documents/Meyendorff%20-%20marriage.pdf

I also recommend his book Marriage: An Orthodox Perspective.

His view is widely shared across Orthodoxy (a quick Google search will confirm this) though there is no "official teaching" on the matter.

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: AntonI] #408472
09/21/14 05:45 PM
09/21/14 05:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 556
Brooklyn, NY USA
Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
Member
Economos Roman V. Russo  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 556
Brooklyn, NY USA
The premier canonist of the second half of the twentieth century, Mitred Archimandrite Dr. Victor Pospishil wrote a trailblazing book published by the distinguished Herder Verlag, Divorce and Remarriage in the Catholic Church. For vindicating the historical truth he was marginalized during the whole process of the creation (out of whole cloth) of the CCEO until the last minute. He was sent a copy of the final text for a look-see. The preface to the first edition of his commentary on that deadening code shows the contempt in which he held that turgid tome!

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: griego catolico] #408473
09/21/14 06:32 PM
09/21/14 06:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
New England
Peter J Offline
Member
Peter J  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
New England
Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Your canon law professor should get some courses in real life studies, sir.

Actually, Alex, considering the type of case studies he would assign, I would say he knew very much about real life.

I never met the guy, so I'll let you two sort this out. smile

Re: Demotion of Cardinal Burke and implications [Re: Peter J] #408493
09/22/14 03:55 PM
09/22/14 03:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Orthodox Catholic  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Canada
If I have in any way slighted my brother, Griego Amigo, I apologise and promise to stop engaging in my usual useless and unproductive banter!

Time for me to do some real studying - and praying!

Alex

Page 5 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1
(Release build 20190129)
PHP: 7.1.32 Page Time: 0.035s Queries: 15 (0.011s) Memory: 2.6444 MB (Peak: 2.7636 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-09-18 19:44:46 UTC