The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Margarita, Cae, Cyril_Meth, ruthenianbyz513, Panteleimon
5625 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 173 guests, and 469 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,808
Posts412,317
Members5,625
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #409173 10/30/14 10:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Michael_Thoma Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,585
Quote

I don't think they want yo create the perception of having 1st and 2nd class priest.
Doesn't that perception already exist among some in the 'anti-ordination of married men' crowd?

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #409175 10/30/14 11:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
T
Talon Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Talon
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Talon
So, forgive me if I'm betraying a terribly embarrassing level of ignorance in asking this, but...

What of the prospects of the Church ordaining..."sub priests", if you will. Iraqi men who can validly lead the Divine Liturgy and hear confessions, but are not allowed to do much else (until they receive further formal seminary training at a later date).

Some might see this as a terribly American suggestion ("If you don't have enough priests, just quickly make some new ones! Poof! Just like that!")...But, sincerely...???

Actually this has been done before. They are called priests simplex and they can say mass but not hear confession. I think it unlikely the utilize them again.


Why is that?

I don't think they want yo create the perception of having 1st and 2nd class priest. although Ven Solanus Casey was ordained a priest simplex because his grades in seminary were not good.


...Are "impressions" really taking center stage right now in that volatile situation? Is it all about "impressions" when you have ISIS breathing down your neck, threatening to torture you and chop your children in half? That would be a sickeningly American perspective, if true.

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410188 01/08/15 09:10 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,168
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,168
The Holy Father has ruled in favor of the Chaldean priests. They can remain in the US.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #410190 01/08/15 09:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
The Holy Father has ruled in favor of the Chaldean priests. They can remain in the US.

Well, I guess a Pope can be right sometimes. wink

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410246 01/15/15 12:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
T
Tomassus Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
Roma locuta sed causa non finita (Rome has spoken but the case is not ended): a variation of "Roma locuta causa finita"

According to the January 12, 2015, Los Angeles Times (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln--chaldean-church-20150111-story.html):

Last week Pope Francis appeared to have settled the issue, asserting that Gorgis and the others need not accede to Sako’s demand.

But on Friday, Sako issued a statement that, in effect, said that he does not acknowledge the pope’s authority to overturn his order that the priests return to Iraq. He did not say what steps he might take to enforce his order.

Last edited by Tomassus; 01/15/15 12:04 PM.
Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410248 01/15/15 12:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
T
Tomassus Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
More detail to the above:

Chaldean patriarch defies pope, orders priests back to Iraq

By John Carroll
Story Published: Jan 12, 2015 (Story Updated: Jan 13, 2015)
http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local...dean-priests-back-to-Iraq-288358501.html

The future of three local Chaldean priests and seven others in the western United States is once again in limbo.

Last October, the priests were ordered by the Chaldean patriarch of Iraq to return to Iraq. Then last week Pope Francis stepped in and suspended that order. But this weekend, a shocking new order from the Chaldean patriarch.

"At first we thought it was a joke," said local Chaldean leader Mark Arabo. But it was no joke. In an interview with a Rome-based Catholic news agency, Patriarch Raphael Luis Sako said the survival of the church in Iraq is at stake because of the threat from ISIS. Sako said that if a future exists for the Chaldean church, priests must return to serve the people.

"All of a sudden we see a statement that really has no relevance because Chaldeans are Catholic. They are the exact same thing as Roman Catholics, but they're in the eastern rite," Arabo said.

In other words, like Roman Catholics, Chaldean Catholics take their marching orders from Rome. What the pope says goes, period.

"No one in the Catholic church in their right mind would challenge Pope Francis," Arabo said.

San Diego 6 asked to speak to Father Noel Gorgis of Saint Peter's Chaldean Catholic Cathedral in El Cajon. But he and the other priests are under orders from the Vatican not to talk about the case until a Vatican-led investigation into the incident is complete. But here's what he said last October after Sako issued his initial order for the priests to return to Iraq.

"(It will) put me in danger when I go back there and then they'll kidnap me and kill me," Gorgis said.

Gorgis escaped Iraq decades ago. He and all the other Chaldean priests in the western U.S. are American citizens.

"It's unprecedented for a patriarch, a sitting patriarch to question the authority of the pope and of this pope, one that's of love and peace and humility and wants to unite people as opposed to divide people," Arabo said.

As for Gorgis, Arabo has spoken with him and "...it doesn't bother him that there's a statement here, a statement there. What bothers him is the fragmentation that we need to fix," he said.

Arabo said the Vatican's investigation into the incident should be wrapped up by February. He said it's inconceivable that the Pope would change his mind and side with the patriarch.

But whatever happens, Arabo said Gorgis and the other priests will not return to Iraq.

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Tomassus] #410251 01/15/15 04:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Sometimes it is good to have a Pope who can overrule even the Primate of the local Church . . .

Alex

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Tomassus] #410268 01/16/15 09:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by Tomassus
"It's unprecedented for a patriarch, a sitting patriarch to question the authority of the pope and of this pope, one that's of love and peace and humility and wants to unite people as opposed to divide people," Arabo said.

Now he can't even question the authority of the pope?!

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Peter J] #410273 01/16/15 05:23 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Tomassus
"It's unprecedented for a patriarch, a sitting patriarch to question the authority of the pope and of this pope, one that's of love and peace and humility and wants to unite people as opposed to divide people," Arabo said.

Now he can't even question the authority of the pope?!


I would note that even a Patriarch of the Eastern Rite would at some point have to make the same choice regarding remaining Catholic in union with the Pope as was made by my grandparents and parents so many years ago. For better or worse, the institution of the Papacy here may bend, but it will not break. (And if misjudgments are made, as in Cum Data Fuerit, recognition of such errors could only be made far in the future.)

As I've noted before, the concept of 'universal jurisdiction' is the one that really is the ultimate obstacle to any reunion between Rome and the Orthodox.

But as they say in my line of work, hard cases make bad law.

Let us pray for all of them and all Christians facing turmoil in the world.

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: DMD] #410276 01/16/15 08:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by DMD
For better or worse, the institution of the Papacy here may bend, but it will not break.

Agreed, but I think saying that he cannot even question the pope's authority is beyond the usual, so to speak. (Or am I being overly optimistic?)

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Peter J] #410279 01/16/15 11:24 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by DMD
For better or worse, the institution of the Papacy here may bend, but it will not break.

Agreed, but I think saying that he cannot even question the pope's authority is beyond the usual, so to speak. (Or am I being overly optimistic?)


History tells us, and I may anecdotally concur, that sincere Catholics who feel compelled to persist in questioning the authority of the Pope usually end up former Catholics.

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410302 01/19/15 10:45 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13
Magdaleni Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13
Are there Chaldean Catholics who support the Patriarch? This is a humanitarian and ecclesiastical crisis. Why did Pope Francis not defer to the Patriarch in this matter of Church discipline? What about the priests who obeyed?

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Magdaleni] #410322 01/23/15 10:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Ultimately, we shouldn't make this a point of discussion regarding "obedience."

Those who disobeyed their Patriarch simply don't want to go where their lives and those of their families would be in immediate danger.

And have we forgotten the principle that has always existed in the once fully united Church regarding the appeal to Rome?

Alex

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: Michael_Thoma] #411136 04/10/15 11:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1
K
kitab500 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1
It is most certainly a matter of obedience and it is also a matter of the vocation of these priests and monks. They were called to serve the people of God in good times and in bad times. How can they expect that they should be allowed to go wherever they please when the church in Iraq is facing such persecution and needs stability now more than ever. One of the new Chaldean bishops that was serving in Detroit was kidnapped and beaten and threatened with death in Iraq. After a period of serving in Detroit, he is returning as a bishop to Baghdad to serve alongside his Patriarch. What future does the Chaldean Church have if everyone moves to San Diego? How can we allow the witness to the Christian Faith that has existed in Mesopotamia from apostolic times simply disappear because of fear?

There should never have been an appeal to Rome because according to canon law these clergy are under the Patriarch and have no right to claim that since they are in San Diego they are not. How Mar Sarhad Jammo and Mar Bawai with all their vaunted learning could pretend that they had a case for appeal is beyond me. But fortunately it is not beyond Pope Francis as he has decided in favor of the Patriarch and against those that think it is o.k. to attack and insult the Patriarch who is every day in harm’s way and cause division in the Church: http://saint-adday.com/permalink/7275.html

Re: Chaldean Patriarch suspends 12 priests/monks [Re: kitab500] #411143 04/11/15 09:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by kitab500
What future does the Chaldean Church have if everyone moves to San Diego?

Well, you tell me I guess.

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3