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Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #408970 10/18/14 05:36 PM
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As a Christian baptised in the Modern Roman Rite, yet exposed by grace to the Orthodox Church and her bold stance against innovations, I have this one observation: Ad orientum seems to be one of the most fiercely contested liturgical matters within Modern Catholicism.

I truly believe one's position on "ad orientum" and "versus populum" exposes the roots of one's ideology. If a person proclaims that the priest is "turning his back on the people," that speaks volumes on his personal theology.

I think restoring ad orientum worship to Modern Catholic parishes would be a major strike against heresy.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: BenjaminRH] #408977 10/19/14 12:23 AM
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Messdiener Offline
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Originally Posted by BenjaminRH
As a Christian baptised in the Modern Roman Rite, yet exposed by grace to the Orthodox Church and her bold stance against innovations, I have this one observation: Ad orientum seems to be one of the most fiercely contested liturgical matters within Modern Catholicism.

I truly believe one's position on "ad orientum" and "versus populum" exposes the roots of one's ideology. If a person proclaims that the priest is "turning his back on the people," that speaks volumes on his personal theology.

I think restoring ad orientum worship to Modern Catholic parishes would be a major strike against heresy.


Preach it, Benjamin!

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #408985 10/19/14 07:00 AM
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In my humble view, especially as a non-theologian, opposition to ad orientum is a core pillar of Neo-Iconoclasm.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: BenjaminRH] #408995 10/20/14 09:36 AM
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MichaelO Offline
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Originally Posted by BenjaminRH
In my humble view, especially as a non-theologian, opposition to ad orientum is a core pillar of Neo-Iconoclasm.

I'm told that having the priest stand behind the altar and face the people was considered and rejected as part of the infamous Ruthenian RDL. So I guess we do need to be thankful. It could have been far worse than it is.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: MichaelO] #409015 10/21/14 02:27 PM
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In defence of Father Petras and others, if this was considered, it was only because someone suggested it and I suspect it was quickly and forcefully dismissed. I'm sure that many oddities were 'suggested' from various interest groups.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409021 10/21/14 05:23 PM
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Let's not forget that its not quite the novelty some make it seem, rememeber this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Qttr5rJzxIQ/Ucr01s7RL8I/AAAAAAAAjfE/HQZ5lRObrHQ/s1600/serapionos.jpg

From the Greek Orthodox.. DL of St. Serapion

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409075 10/23/14 06:36 PM
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Alice Offline
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Also the ancient liturgy of St. James (first Bishop of Jerusalem, and the DL that was used there) faces the people.


Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409087 10/24/14 08:41 PM
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Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
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Please, brethren, as the last native speaker of Latin from before the fall of the Roman Empire, I can assure you it is 'ad orientem' not 'ad orientum'. Of course, I'm speaking of accidence here, not liturgical preference! Also, 'coram populo' is surely preferable to 'versus populum'. Jes sayin'!

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409125 10/27/14 05:55 AM
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Dcn Anton Offline
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I've seen photos of the Divine Liturgies of St James, Sarapion, etc served apparently versus populum (coram populo?) ... but upon what principle or evidence is such a west-facing practice based? Any commentary I have been able to find states that the practice is "for education", or only applies during the Liturgy of the Catechumens.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Alice] #409129 10/27/14 10:38 AM
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griego catolico Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Alice
Also the ancient liturgy of St. James (first Bishop of Jerusalem, and the DL that was used there) faces the people.


The Mystagogy blog has a seven-part critique of the Liturgy of St. James titled, The Liturgy of Saint James: The Trojan Horse of "Liturgical Renewal": link.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409179 10/30/14 07:30 PM
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Dcn Anton Offline
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Thank you, griego catolico. I see that the final instalment of Fr Basil Steliopoulos' article was published in English yesterday: The Liturgy of St James: the Trojan Horse of "Liturgical Renewal" (7 of 7).

Last edited by Dcn Anton; 10/30/14 07:35 PM.
Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: Dcn Anton] #409188 10/31/14 03:49 PM
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Parts of this linked reply are inaccurate, for example:

"Yet, important is the fact that the Non-Chalcedonian churches, with whom union has almost practically been achieved because our atheological schools have made sure to tell us that the Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Synod were in error in regards to who they condemned and in fact they were really Orthodox, these use this Liturgy of Saint James. Could it be that through this Liturgy we will all receive the Common Cup not only with the Papists, but also with the Monophysites?"

The Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, specifically the Syriac Orthodox, do not use this same Liturgy of St. James, although they bear the same name. Nor do they normally face the people during their Liturgy.



In addition to this inaccuracy, the poster continues to tirade against different forms of Liturgy. This makes one wonder if he believes the EO is unable to handle a non-monolithic uniform Liturgy. The OO and Catholics have been able to accept various forms, why can't his EO? I wonder how he sees the WRO.

Re: Celebrating the Divine Liturgy "facing the people" [Re: griego catolico] #409198 11/01/14 11:20 PM
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Dcn Anton Offline
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Yes, Michael Thoma - with respect to Fr Basil, I think his article needs to be read with several grains of salt. Though it is interesting to see a reaction to the increasingly common westwardly served Byzantine Liturgy of St James. Interestingly, there is a video of a Russian service of this Liturgy (Godbearer "Soothe My Sorrows" Church, Saratov) that, while sharing some of the elements criticised by Fr Basil, could hardly be deemed served in an "untraditional" manner: Божественная литургия по чину святого апостола Иакова.

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