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Originally Posted by DMD
My nevermind was along the same lines, except to note that most of the Orthodox world does not really accept the 'Western Rite' experiment as it reminds them of what they complain of in the reverse - and WRO lacks the liturgical authenticity of tradition which the Eastern Catholic churches posses.

What makes something liturgically authentic? To be blunt, much of what happens in the Roman Church today could be called "artificial" and as a consequence could be seen as "liturgically inauthentic."

Here are just a few examples of what I am talking about:


Solemn Mass at Our Lady of Aparecida in Brazil.


Pentecost liturgy at a German Catholic Church.


Holy Spirit / Newman Center Catholic Church in California.

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And also the WRO was/is an experiment that came from Western converts to Orthodoxy (they were never "imposed" on anyone as the EC's Churches came to know RC imposition).

In addition, what constitutes pre-schism Western Rite tradition tends to become linked to many post-schism traditions. Western converts to Western Rite Orthodoxy tend to want to keep most, if not all, of their liturgical and para-liturgical traditions that could be/are problematic not from the Eastern point of view, but from the Orthodox point of view.

What it comes down to is that neither the EC "Uniate" experiment (for that is what it was/is) nor the WRO experiment have worked out well.

True reunion of East and West on the basis of "equals" would be the way to go - whether yesterday, today or in future.

Alex

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Undoubtedly "Greek Catholics united to Orthodoxy" would go a long way to stabilizing Ukrainian national identity and lay to rest centuries of competing with each other as well as givinf the cold shoulder to Moscow. The best of all worlds for Ukraine!

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Dear Sir,

I guess I'm getting to an age when i must leave such questions to erudite persons such as yourself!

But I appreciate your incisive comment!

Alex

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I think what baffles the people who believe that the UGCC is somehow a foreign plot is that they fail to remember history.

The Ukrainian Church was in communion with both Rome and Constantinople for awhile after the schism. And it may be the very bridge that brings both parties back into communion again by being in communion with both.

Bob

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Apotheoun:

Thanks for making my flesh crawl this morning with these videos.

Bob

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I am not disputing the sincerity of Faith that a devout WRO possesses any more that I would ever dispute the sincerity of Faith of a devout Eastern Catholic. I will concede that my point of view regarding WRO is framed by my own familial experience and Eastern Catholic ancestry.

But, Alex has, in my view, expressed the harsh reality that few - on either the Orthodox or Catholic side of things - really want to address or even talk of.


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Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
... "Greek Catholics united to Orthodoxy" ...

Without meaning any offense to anyone who goes that route, let me just say that if it were me I would simply call myself Orthodox, not keep using the name GC.

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Just playing with "Orthodox United With Rome" Actually the ACROD is just that "Greek Caholics United with Constantinople" because they have kept all of the Ruthenian liturgical traditions even when they appear to be "westernizations"

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Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Just playing with "Orthodox United With Rome" Actually the ACROD is just that "Greek Caholics United with Constantinople" because they have kept all of the Ruthenian liturgical traditions even when they appear to be "westernizations"


True in 1955, not true today. This is the old Russophile Metropolia's great red herring which accounts for lingering bad blood between many in both jurisdictions.

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Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Just playing with "Orthodox United With Rome"

Fair enough ... turn about and all that. smile

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Just playing with "Orthodox United With Rome" Actually the ACROD is just that "Greek Caholics United with Constantinople" because they have kept all of the Ruthenian liturgical traditions even when they appear to be "westernizations"

True in 1955, not true today.

And, even then, it didn't make them GCs. Latinized Orthodox maybe, but not GCs.

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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by DMD
My nevermind was along the same lines, except to note that most of the Orthodox world does not really accept the 'Western Rite' experiment as it reminds them of what they complain of in the reverse - and WRO lacks the liturgical authenticity of tradition which the Eastern Catholic churches posses.

What makes something liturgically authentic? To be blunt, much of what happens in the Roman Church today could be called "artificial" and as a consequence could be seen as "liturgically inauthentic."

Here are just a few examples of what I am talking about:


Solemn Mass at Our Lady of Aparecida in Brazil.


Pentecost liturgy at a German Catholic Church.


Holy Spirit / Newman Center Catholic Church in California.


______________

I hate to say it but you cannot make a judgment call on liturgy by showing only small excerpts - it is a serious mistake to judge in such context and I cannot agree with you. In case you have not noticed much of the Orthodox Church Liturgy - that of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada for example is very similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church. While Pope Francis I and Patriarch Bartholomew I this week (November 29, 2014) have 'signed a joint declaration in the ongoing attempt to reunite the churches,' it is very difficult to start going around bashing each other needlessly while two major religious traditions seek to reunite in ONE CHURCH. It is best to be examples as Christians and work toward PEACE and to unite in a strong Church which is based in Christ.

Mass in the Roman Catholic Church practicing the Latin rite is much shorten [about 1 hour] and provides more 'flexibility' of expression in expressing prayer and love of Christ while the Roman Catholic practicing the Byzantine rite have a much longer mass [about 2-3 hours] (which contains many of the same prayers we also have in the Latin Rite in our prayer books) and older forms of prayer expression accepted by the Holy See and is more 'strict' in terms of what can happen during the service (that is my opinion as I have been to both) - yet, neither is 'liturgically inauthentic' nor wrong and both are based on the same theology, etc. Also, mass can incorporate local traditions - from Gregorian Chants (still sung in some churches) to modern music along with dance as well - there is a wide array of expression to thank God for giving us graces and life... and none are 'wrong' or liturgically inappropriate or incorrect.

The 'differences' and barriers which separate are falling one by one and we should well stay away from pronouncing anything which divides and work in true Christian spirit toward unification.

I pray for the unification of the Church - where both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church shall unite and the schism end in PEACE and solid reunification - a strong Church and a great example of Peace to the world!

Best

Last edited by Tryzub Rurikid; 11/29/14 10:40 PM. Reason: I added a paragraph to clarify my position and express myself a little better on this topic
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Originally Posted by Tryzub Rurikid
I hate to say it but you cannot make a judgment call on liturgy by showing only small excerpts - it is a serious mistake to judge in such context and I cannot agree with you.

Actually I can make a judgment about the liturgies depicted in the videos I posted; and moreover, who said that I have only seen excerpts of all of those liturgies. I live only 30 minutes from Berkeley and have attended the parish at the Newman Center.

As far as the "excerpts" of the liturgies in Brazil and Germany are concerned, they exemplify the worst aspects of modern Catholic worship. It is perfectly acceptable to judge those liturgies as destructive of the faith.

Lack of judgment is not a virtue.

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Originally Posted by Tryzub Rurikid
I pray for the unification of the Church - where both the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church shall unite and the schism end in PEACE and solid reunification - a strong Church and a great example of Peace to the world!

I pray that liturgical sanity is restored to the Roman Catholic Church, because until that happens any talk about the restoration of communion between the whole of the West and the whole of the East is pointless. I would hate to see the modernist garbage that passes for liturgy in most of the Roman Catholic parishes that I have attended over the past 26 years affect the liturgical life of the Orthodox parishes in my local area.

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Quote
along with dance


Christ is in our midst!!

Actually, Rome has passed on the issue of liturgical dance and the answer is "no." Remember that being a Latin Catholic presumes that we are closely following the liturgical practice of the diocese of Rome and its bishop. You certainly won't see liturgical dance in Rome. Nor will you see the irreverent examples posted. We still have a lot of leftover 60s ideas of what ought to constitute liturgical practice. Andit just doesn't seem to get any better.

Bob

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