The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
KARIM LEY, Arizona Byzantine, Irenaeus23, Al Masihi, Seavila777
5565 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 61 guests, and 384 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,608
Posts411,058
Members5,565
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? #409328
11/12/14 04:52 AM
11/12/14 04:52 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Ivanov325 Offline OP
Junior Member
Ivanov325  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
I have seen the Eucharist given at the same Liturgy where one line of communicants is receiving leavened bread (by intinction)from the priest, and the other line of communicants is receiving what appear to be Roman Catholic style round hosts (unleavened?)(by intinction) from the Deacon. Having come from an Orthodox experience, this is confusing to me. Can someone please explain? (My priest is unavailable for me to ask this week).
Thank you.

Ivanov

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409330
11/12/14 05:35 AM
11/12/14 05:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
What is the context? Which Church is this - Roman, Byzantine, Oriental, Assyrian?

In Roman and most Eastern Catholic parishes - it is permitted for priests/deacons to intinct and give via mouth to the communicant.

The only Churches with the Tradition of allowing the communicant to self-intinct is the Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldeans and Syro-Malabar Catholics.

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #409331
11/12/14 05:59 AM
11/12/14 05:59 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Ivanov325 Offline OP
Junior Member
Ivanov325  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Thank you, Michael,
The crux of my question has to do with the fact that two different breads are used at the same Liturgy... one is the leavened bread, the other looks exactly like Roman Catholic unleavened 'hosts'. Perhaps I was too descriptive and made it seem as though WHO was intincting and distributing was my concern. Not so. Forgive me.
My focus is on my understanding of the several loaves constituting the ONE bread that is prepared and offered in the Liturgy.. leavened. The presence of little round 'hosts' (which in the Roman church is unleavened)in use AS WELL seems out of place and contradictory to the entire process of preparations and consecration of the ONE Bread. The two 'modes' seeming mutually exclusive... ie, leavened and unleavened. The Melkite Church uses the ancient usage of leavened bread intincted in the Chalice (if I understand correctly). Again, I'm learning... but also vigilant. If I were to see a communicant self-intincting, I would be quite confused and concerned however. But this was not the case. Many thanks for your quick response and willingness to help!

Ivanov

Last edited by Ivanov325; 11/12/14 06:00 AM.
Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409332
11/12/14 07:31 AM
11/12/14 07:31 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Ivanov325 Offline OP
Junior Member
Ivanov325  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Just as an addendum... this was in a Melkite church. Also, after a bit more searching.. it seems the use of intinction in the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church (as well as the the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church) began to be accepted and used in the 20th century. (Citing Wikipedia: In the Eastern Orthodox Church, leavened bread is employed for the Eucharist. Traditionally, the consecrated bread is placed in the chalice and is given together with the consecrated wine directly into the communicant's mouth with a small spoon. Some of the Byzantine-rite Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Church of Rome adopted intinction during the early twentieth century, dividing the bread into pieces long enough to be partially dipped in the consecrated wine and placed on the communicant's tongue. This is the practice at least of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church[3] and the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church.[4] (end reference).

Again, I am inquiring about a seeming contradiction and in no way seeking polemic or argument... just an answer.

Ivanov






Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409337
11/12/14 03:05 PM
11/12/14 03:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
The Melkites have practices that hearken back to their pre-Byzantine Syriac roots, there was a bit of revival of some of these in the 18th and 19th Cent. These are a little different than the practices of the Slavic Byzantine Churches. This method of Intinction by the priest by dipping the Body into the Blood and giving to the communicant by mouth is legitimate in the Antiochian Western Syriac Churches such as the Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malankara Catholic, Malankara Orthodox. The method of the spoon, or even the priest placing the Body which has been sprinkled with the Blood is also used.

In all these, however, the bread should be LEAVENED. Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches have been LAZY and use the Roman host. I am unaware of any Melkite Churches that do this though.

Some EASTERN hosts may look like Latin hosts but are actually leavened and flattened. For example, the Syro-Malankara Catholic Churches Traditionally use the leavened Syriac host, with the proper inscriptions and are flattened to wafer size.

Unfortunately many Syro-Malankara parishes are today being lazy and using the Roman hosts as well. This is forbidden in the Canons, even though routinely ignored by the local hierarchs in the diaspora.

Here's an example of the Syriac Imprintation stamp:
[Linked Image]

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #409338
11/12/14 03:36 PM
11/12/14 03:36 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Ivanov325 Offline OP
Junior Member
Ivanov325  Offline OP
Junior Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 24
US
Thank you, VERY much, Michael! This is most helpful! I think from this point forward I'll take the question to the local level and resolve the issue. Your time and help are greatly appreciated!

In Christ Jesus,

Ivanov

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409352
11/13/14 09:22 PM
11/13/14 09:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
M
Messdiener Offline
Member
Messdiener  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
Ivanov,

While I am not a Melkite, perhaps you will permit me to add one or two additional comments on this matter.

In my experience with one of the non-Melkite Greek Catholic Churches (in North America), I have seen some clergy use unleavened, unconsecrated (Roman) hosts for laity that have severe celiac disease. The clergy would simply intinct those reserved "hosts" for the handful of congregants that couldn't otherwise receive the leavened Eucharist.

Whether liturgically or canonically (in)correct, I can confirm that this is indeed practiced.

Messdiener

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409354
11/14/14 03:19 AM
11/14/14 03:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 555
Brooklyn, NY USA
Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
Member
Economos Roman V. Russo  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 555
Brooklyn, NY USA
If you have severe celiac disease, simply inform the deacon and he will arrange with the priest to communicate you by spoon with the Eucharistic wine alone.

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Messdiener] #409373
11/14/14 02:12 PM
11/14/14 02:12 PM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,149
Washington, PA
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Fr. Deacon Lance  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,149
Washington, PA
Originally Posted by Messdiener
Ivanov,

While I am not a Melkite, perhaps you will permit me to add one or two additional comments on this matter.

In my experience with one of the non-Melkite Greek Catholic Churches (in North America), I have seen some clergy use unleavened, unconsecrated (Roman) hosts for laity that have severe celiac disease. The clergy would simply intinct those reserved "hosts" for the handful of congregants that couldn't otherwise receive the leavened Eucharist.

Whether liturgically or canonically (in)correct, I can confirm that this is indeed practiced.

Messdiener

I find this hard to believe as Latin hosts are as dangerous to a Celiac as Byzantine prosphora.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #409384
11/15/14 07:00 AM
11/15/14 07:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,331
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline
Moderator
theophan  Offline
Moderator
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,331
Hollidaysburg, PA
Father Deacon:

Christ is in our midst!!

There is a special type of altar bread that we have obtained in our parish that meets the requirements of being valid matter and yet having so little gluten that our members who need this can receive without problem. There is a convent that makes them, but I cannot tell you offhand where it is. When you google "gluten free altar bread," you now can find many sources.

Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration
31970 State Hwy P
Clyde, MO 64432-8100
Phone: 660-944-2221

Bob

Last edited by theophan; 11/15/14 07:03 AM. Reason: additional information
Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Ivanov325] #409393
11/15/14 06:43 PM
11/15/14 06:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 994
Las Vegas
dochawk Offline
Member
dochawk  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 994
Las Vegas
I have also seen latin hosts kept in reserve used for alcoholics, who cannot receive under both species.

hawk

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #409408
11/16/14 02:47 PM
11/16/14 02:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
M
Messdiener Offline
Member
Messdiener  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
Fr. Dn. Lance,

Yes, that would normally be the case. Certainly!

Yet, at the particular parish I have in mind, they are using these "Roman" (style) hosts.

Messdiener

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Messdiener] #409434
11/17/14 11:12 AM
11/17/14 11:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member
Michael_Thoma  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,583
Chicago
Originally Posted by Messdiener
Fr. Dn. Lance,

Yes, that would normally be the case. Certainly!

Yet, at the particular parish I have in mind, they are using these "Roman" (style) hosts.

Messdiener
Absolutely forbidden, except as a host for carrying the Precious Blood.. even in that case, why cause such confusion?

Re: Altar Breads...2 kinds at same Liturgy? [Re: Michael_Thoma] #409456
11/17/14 07:40 PM
11/17/14 07:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
M
Messdiener Offline
Member
Messdiener  Offline
Member
M

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 73
Asia
I am not justifying the practice but was simply sharing an experience that may have been observed by others here in the conversation.


Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2018. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.017s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 2.0376 MB (Peak: 2.2632 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2018-12-14 06:02:01 UTC