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Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: John Doucette] #409998 12/20/14 03:15 PM
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Quote from John Doucette: "I agree with totally - Pope Francis has not destroyed the Church - he is trying his very best to help the Church after all he is the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth and he is worthy of our respect!!!! Amen"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I humbly disagree.

John's Gospel Chap. 15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

I believe the understanding among many Eastern Christians, from these simple, Divine words of Christ Jesus - Emmanuel - "God with us", is that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, is and becomes THE Vicar of Christ in the economy of Salvation once Christ has Ascended and Pentecost has come.

Again, God in the flesh - Christ Jesus the Lord, said this:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (Ed. note - addressing the disciples/apostles).

Again, in Acts:
2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

It appears that this verse demonstrates practically what The Lord said in John 15, "... And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning" AFTER He had announced that He would send the Spirit of Truth, "Who proceeds FROM THE FATHER". It also echoes another place in Acts where the apostles, needing guidance, prayed together. They received this guidance and expressed this accordingly - "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, AND to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;..."(Acts 15:28). (Note the "collegial/synodal" context). If you believe that this synodal instruction, placed into Sacred Scripture, would be overturned once Rome had the Gospel preached to it and Peter came there, then we depart at this juncture. I hope that is not the case.

It is my understanding that the HOLY SPIRIT is THE Vicar of Christ. Do you see how the Church's salvation... the Church of which Christ is the Head, comes into being through the love of The Father sending, the love of The Son giving Himself for Her, and the love of The Holy Spirit comforting and teaching / guiding Her? Do you see how in all of this, The Holy and Undivided Trinity is inextricably at work and governing according to HIS economy for the Church, His Bride? Where is the basis for assuming that this somehow falls short regarding the Church's governance and welfare, such that a bishop will need to arrogate the prerogatives of God and act as a proxy, earthly fourth member of the Holy Trinity?!! A child sees this as arithmetically impossible! If you believe the Church to be a human institution, earthly only... then proclaiming Francis' glories as you do would make some sense. If you believe the veil in the Temple did not tear from top to bottom, then perhaps you have some basis for your praises. Ephesians Chap. 1 seems to indicate the contrary: "22 And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." We no longer believe Heaven is far away and locked away from us. we no longer are left to wander in the valley between visible and invisible... flesh and spirit. At the Divine Liturgy, this, in every action and word, is brought home to each of us here and now. We are embraced by Heaven ON EARTH not only in a most unique and wonderful way at the Liturgy, but the Apostle also writes: For OUR CONVERSATION IS IN HEAVEN (my emphasis); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:(Philippians 3:20)This is our continuing experience as those renewed and regenerated in Christ, by the Holy Spirit in baptism. That which separated is removed.
So, my understanding is that this new reality allows man to relate to Christ Jesus Our Lord and Heaven Itself without the strictures we experienced when lost and carnal, sold under sin. It allows christians to say without equivocation or a quizzical look that Christ is The Head of the Church... because the Church is also both earthly and Heavenly, without division.

This, it seems to me, as I listen and learn from both Bridegroom and Bride... this breaking down of the wall of separation of sin and corruption and death which kept us carnally incarcerated... allows us to understand and embrace, "holistically" (I know this word has poor connotations in certain contexts) the reality of Christ Vicar, The Holy Spirit.. The Spirit of Truth comforting and guiding, teaching and correcting the Church. CHRIST IS IN OUR MIDST!


I will leave it up to you to work your way through these simple and direct Scriptures as a beginning point. In my experience, I have seen and learned that the human longing to be 'right' and to believe that oneself is in the One True Church has, ironically, led to nothing but pride and division... and worse. This must have its genesis in the heart, from which all the issues of life proceed, according to Our Lord. We have failed in obedience and humility, in love and repentance, in faith. For the protestants, it is most "expedient" for 'the bible' to be their sole source of authority... a book can't look you in the eye or force you to properly interpret its contents, even Sacred Scripture. You are your own pope. Likewise, among the Frank-Latins, a surrender to despotism with recourse to a thousand wordcrafters and nuance-mancers to comfort you along the way is their "expedience".
If I understand, Christ's eternal words make it clear that the Spirit of Truth coming, and no other substitute, is to be the Church's expedience. And that this same Spirit of Truth, against Whom blasphemy in this world and the next cannot be forgiven, is the Unique and irreplaceable VICAR of CHRIST-ascended. Again, I believe (and I am nothing) that this is wonderfully Trinitarian. These verities have not changed despite libraries full of musers and theorists accumulated over the last millenium and longer.

Over 63 years, I have been protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox (and have received the Mysteries from Melkite clergy as well). I, for one, don't believe that the reception of Truth is the result of political/religious intrigue or of scholastic "onanism" (pleasure without fruit, self-directed). My sympathies are with all of my other 'peasant' brothers around the globe who have been thrown into the hapless whirlpool of "true-churchism", all the while knowing in their hearts that Christ is Our Head, his lawful deputies (bishops and priests) our servants and helpers (some inviting more honor than others), and His Church indestructible.. and in no need of synthetic innovations and endless speculations to make Her more attractive. And let us not forget that the Church's Head is a Man... INDEED, the Son of Man and Son of God.
"The Lord knows them that are His, and let every one who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity"... so says the Apostle.

I humbly submit this, longing for a true unity that must come about through humility and repentance (of biblical proportions), and above all, love unfeigned.

A sinner.
Ivanov

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Ivanov325] #410016 12/23/14 01:43 PM
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Dear Ivanov,

So you were Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic . . . and now you are .... ? smile

God bless you!

Alex

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Talon] #410021 12/23/14 10:14 PM
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I think His Holiness could be more precise in his speech. He leaves unfortunate room for misinterpretation of otherwise orthodox statements.

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: latinkatolicky] #410029 12/25/14 02:58 PM
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In fact, people have been "misinterpreting" papal statements for centuries! smile

I know of about seven individuals now who have either become Catholic or have returned to the Catholic Church's sacramental life as a result of the influence of Pope Francis.

If that is the result of "misinterpretation," may the Holy Father never be succinct!! grin

Christus Natus Est!

Alex

Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 12/25/14 02:59 PM.
Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #410030 12/25/14 03:44 PM
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Christ is Born!

You got the sequence a little wrong... I was born into a protestant family, and after many years among the protestants, especially the last 15, I then converted to Catholicism, and was there (most all flavors) for nearly a quarter of a century, and then my long journey through western christendom's many offerings was consummated when I (a slow learner) became converted by and to Orthodoxy, having had the "E" on the compass pointed out to me. A very profound (at least for me) conversion outside the ecclesial ethos was mercifully given much earlier when I was 21, and this set me on a course, after trying to come to grips with all the various forms and flavors of 'christianity' offered in this culture... this set me on the course early on of seeking to learn about the One Church that was so apparent in Scripture.
Now some say that, as I hope you are not intimating, that I suffer from wanderlust and instability... I am a sinner, and most mud will stick. But by the same token, given the plethora of groups and 'traditions, big and small, that advertise themselves as churches... and being one who is not content to simply 'read and feel' about such an important task, I actually went and knocked on doors, asked questions and prayed with many of these groups... from classroom to lab you might say. Why? Because this is what I was presented with. Hence the journey. I did not dictate the number of doors to be knocked on in a pluralistic, relativistic culture... this journey, of necessity and because of endless divisions of both past and present, was a lengthy and painful one... for one born in the 20th century, in America.
I know you agree that it is wrong, painfully so, to assign weakness or even guilt to one who did not create; is not responsible for the form of the "gauntlet", but rather accepted it and sought to run it in order to be faithful to... to love sincerely... the Lord Who had come to him at age 21 and converted him so deeply. This is the path that God's providence oversaw for me, for my salvation.
So again, you misrepresented my sequence (and I'm sure quite innocently so). I wrote that I was protestant, (then) Roman catholic and (then)Orthodox (meant to be understood sequentially). So you see, as you assign fault/guilt to others who have 'misinterpreted' papal statements for centuries, how easily you misquoted my written sequence and, I assume by your query at the end, assigned a 'shadow' to my journey and its ultimate consummation in Orthodoxy.
In my experience,especially with the Vatican II vocabulary, misinterpretation is all but a given, in the context of the continual ambiguities one is faced with. But lest I should stir up a useless polemic, I will leave it here. I am, by God's grace and loving Providence, Orthodox now and until the end, Lord have mercy. And I can never thank Him enough for taking pity on me and hearing my cries, and not leaving me wasting away with a convenient choice, midway, that would have me ever defending the indefensible.
We must pray for one another, dear brother. We are both called to become, in Christ Jesus, true icons of God.

A most blessed Nativity!

Ivanov

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Ivanov325] #410043 12/27/14 10:57 PM
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Absolutely Ivanov (forgive my quip . . .).

When St Justin the Philosopher became a Christian, he decided to keep his philosopher's robe (and is portrayed with it on in icons of him).

Christians wondered about this and asked him why was he wearing the symbolic robe of someone who was always "seeking the truth" - had he not found it already?

For St Justin - as for us all - we are always on a journey that never ends until we are in Heaven.

You are just another Justin in that regard!

Bless you on the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord!

Alex

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Ivanov325] #410051 12/28/14 08:12 PM
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Dear brother Ivanov,

Permit me to provide a perspective borne of a very thorough study of the issues surrounding the papacy (i.e., the Roman papacy). My study on the papacy, and the conclusions I was able to draw from that study, was an important (though not only) factor in my translation to Catholicism from Oriental Orthodoxy.

The concern you expressed here (that the Pope is not the vicar of Christ because the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ) is practically identical to the concern expressed by those who claim that the Pope of Rome cannot be the head of the Church because Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. The resolution of the issue is identical, so please permit me to approach it first from a consideration of the latter issue (i.e., the Pope of Rome cannot be the head of the Church because Jesus Christ is the head of the Church).

The first time I heard the argument that there can be no human head of the Church because Christ is the head of the Church was from Protestants who were arguing against my faith as a Coptic Orthodox Christian. As I'm sure you would agree, we apostolic Christians regard a bishop as the head of the local Church, a metropolitan as head of the metropolitan Church, and the patriarch as head of the patriarchal Church. Because of this, even when I was not yet Catholic, I never accepted the argument made by my fellow Orthodox against Catholics that the Pope cannot be the head of the Church because Christ is the head of the Church (I had my objections against the Roman papacy at that time, but the idea that there can be no human head of the Church was definitely not one of them). I adhered/adhere to the common Orthodox ecclesiology that the local Church represents the fullness of the Church. Hence, I considered it hypocritical to argue that there can be a human head of the Church when debating with Protestants, while simultaneously arguing that there cannot be a human head of the Church when debating with Catholics! After all, if the local Church, which represents the fullness of the Church, can have a human head, why cannot the universal Church, which surely does represent the fullness of the Church, also have a human head?

But the main personal objection I had to the argument made by my fellow Orthodox against the Catholic position (i.e., that there can be no human head of the Church since Jesus Christ is the head of the Church) was that it went against the Traditional Sacramental/Incarnational theology of the Church .

One can easily accomodate this rationale to your concern in order to resolve the issue. Based on patristic and Traditional Sacramental/Incarnational theology, there is no dichotomy between saying that the the Pope of Rome is the vicar of Christ and saying that the Holy Spirit is the vicar of Christ. The objective fact is that according to Sacramental/Incarnational theology, God works through his creation. That God the Holy Spirit works through human agents is beyond doubt. Such human agents can truly be called vicars of Christ. Couple this with the teaching of St. Ignatius of Antioch that the bishop holds the place of God on earth, and the teaching of Vatican 2 that all bishops are truly vicars of Christ, I don't believe there can be a valid objection to the statement that the Pope of Rome is the vicar of Christ on earth.

I hope that helps.

Blessings and have a blessed Nativity,
Marduk

Originally Posted by Ivanov325
Quote from John Doucette: "I agree with totally - Pope Francis has not destroyed the Church - he is trying his very best to help the Church after all he is the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth and he is worthy of our respect!!!! Amen"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I humbly disagree.

John's Gospel Chap. 15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

I believe the understanding among many Eastern Christians, from these simple, Divine words of Christ Jesus - Emmanuel - "God with us", is that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, is and becomes THE Vicar of Christ in the economy of Salvation once Christ has Ascended and Pentecost has come.

Again, God in the flesh - Christ Jesus the Lord, said this:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (Ed. note - addressing the disciples/apostles).

Again, in Acts:
2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

It appears that this verse demonstrates practically what The Lord said in John 15, "... And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning" AFTER He had announced that He would send the Spirit of Truth, "Who proceeds FROM THE FATHER". It also echoes another place in Acts where the apostles, needing guidance, prayed together. They received this guidance and expressed this accordingly - "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, AND to US, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;..."(Acts 15:28). (Note the "collegial/synodal" context). If you believe that this synodal instruction, placed into Sacred Scripture, would be overturned once Rome had the Gospel preached to it and Peter came there, then we depart at this juncture. I hope that is not the case.

It is my understanding that the HOLY SPIRIT is THE Vicar of Christ. Do you see how the Church's salvation... the Church of which Christ is the Head, comes into being through the love of The Father sending, the love of The Son giving Himself for Her, and the love of The Holy Spirit comforting and teaching / guiding Her? Do you see how in all of this, The Holy and Undivided Trinity is inextricably at work and governing according to HIS economy for the Church, His Bride? Where is the basis for assuming that this somehow falls short regarding the Church's governance and welfare, such that a bishop will need to arrogate the prerogatives of God and act as a proxy, earthly fourth member of the Holy Trinity?!! A child sees this as arithmetically impossible! If you believe the Church to be a human institution, earthly only... then proclaiming Francis' glories as you do would make some sense. If you believe the veil in the Temple did not tear from top to bottom, then perhaps you have some basis for your praises. Ephesians Chap. 1 seems to indicate the contrary: "22 And hath put all things under his (Christ's) feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." We no longer believe Heaven is far away and locked away from us. we no longer are left to wander in the valley between visible and invisible... flesh and spirit. At the Divine Liturgy, this, in every action and word, is brought home to each of us here and now. We are embraced by Heaven ON EARTH not only in a most unique and wonderful way at the Liturgy, but the Apostle also writes: For OUR CONVERSATION IS IN HEAVEN (my emphasis); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:(Philippians 3:20)This is our continuing experience as those renewed and regenerated in Christ, by the Holy Spirit in baptism. That which separated is removed.
So, my understanding is that this new reality allows man to relate to Christ Jesus Our Lord and Heaven Itself without the strictures we experienced when lost and carnal, sold under sin. It allows christians to say without equivocation or a quizzical look that Christ is The Head of the Church... because the Church is also both earthly and Heavenly, without division.

This, it seems to me, as I listen and learn from both Bridegroom and Bride... this breaking down of the wall of separation of sin and corruption and death which kept us carnally incarcerated... allows us to understand and embrace, "holistically" (I know this word has poor connotations in certain contexts) the reality of Christ Vicar, The Holy Spirit.. The Spirit of Truth comforting and guiding, teaching and correcting the Church. CHRIST IS IN OUR MIDST!


I will leave it up to you to work your way through these simple and direct Scriptures as a beginning point. In my experience, I have seen and learned that the human longing to be 'right' and to believe that oneself is in the One True Church has, ironically, led to nothing but pride and division... and worse. This must have its genesis in the heart, from which all the issues of life proceed, according to Our Lord. We have failed in obedience and humility, in love and repentance, in faith. For the protestants, it is most "expedient" for 'the bible' to be their sole source of authority... a book can't look you in the eye or force you to properly interpret its contents, even Sacred Scripture. You are your own pope. Likewise, among the Frank-Latins, a surrender to despotism with recourse to a thousand wordcrafters and nuance-mancers to comfort you along the way is their "expedience".
If I understand, Christ's eternal words make it clear that the Spirit of Truth coming, and no other substitute, is to be the Church's expedience. And that this same Spirit of Truth, against Whom blasphemy in this world and the next cannot be forgiven, is the Unique and irreplaceable VICAR of CHRIST-ascended. Again, I believe (and I am nothing) that this is wonderfully Trinitarian. These verities have not changed despite libraries full of musers and theorists accumulated over the last millenium and longer.

Over 63 years, I have been protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox (and have received the Mysteries from Melkite clergy as well). I, for one, don't believe that the reception of Truth is the result of political/religious intrigue or of scholastic "onanism" (pleasure without fruit, self-directed). My sympathies are with all of my other 'peasant' brothers around the globe who have been thrown into the hapless whirlpool of "true-churchism", all the while knowing in their hearts that Christ is Our Head, his lawful deputies (bishops and priests) our servants and helpers (some inviting more honor than others), and His Church indestructible.. and in no need of synthetic innovations and endless speculations to make Her more attractive. And let us not forget that the Church's Head is a Man... INDEED, the Son of Man and Son of God.
"The Lord knows them that are His, and let every one who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity"... so says the Apostle.

I humbly submit this, longing for a true unity that must come about through humility and repentance (of biblical proportions), and above all, love unfeigned.

A sinner.
Ivanov

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: mardukm] #410053 12/29/14 05:27 PM
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Dear Brother Marduk,

Well done sir! Simply masterful as per your usual!!

Alex

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: mardukm] #410054 12/29/14 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mardukm
Such human agents can truly be called vicars of Christ. Couple this with the teaching of St. Ignatius of Antioch that the bishop holds the place of God on earth, and the teaching of Vatican 2 that all bishops are truly vicars of Christ, I don't believe there can be a valid objection to the statement that the Pope of Rome is the vicar of Christ on earth.


So then you are saying that the Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope of Rome is THE vicar of Christ......but rather that he is A vicar of Christ.

Interesting. I have never heard that before.


Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Recluse] #410056 12/30/14 01:06 AM
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Dear brother Recluse,

Bishop Kyrillos Samaan is the vicar of Christ for the eparchial Church of Assyut.

Patriarch Ibrahim is the vicar of Christ for the patriarchal Church of Alexandria (Catholic, of course).

Pope Francis is the vicar of Christ for the Church universal.

I believe it is as simple as that.

Bishops, as vicars and ambassadors of Christ, govern the particular churches entrusted to them by their counsel, exhortations, example, and even by their authority and sacred power, which indeed they use only for the edification of their flock in truth and holiness, remembering that he who is greater should become as the lesser and he who is the chief become as the servant.(169) This power, which they personally exercise in Christ's name, is proper, ordinary and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately regulated by the supreme authority of the Church, and can be circumscribed by certain limits, for the advantage of the Church or of the faithful. In virtue of this power, bishops have the sacred right and the duty before the Lord to make laws for their subjects, to pass judgment on them and to moderate everything pertaining to the ordering of worship and the apostolate.

The pastoral office or the habitual and daily care of their sheep is entrusted to them completely; nor are they to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiffs, for they exercise an authority that is proper to them, and are quite correctly called "prelates," heads of the people whom they govern. Their power, therefore, is not destroyed by the supreme and universal power, but on the contrary it is affirmed, strengthened and vindicated by it, since the Holy Spirit unfailingly preserves the form of government established by Christ the Lord in His Church.

Lumen Gentium, Vatican 2


Bishops are not the vicars of the Pope of Rome, but the vicars of Christ Himself.

Blessings,
Marduk

Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by mardukm
Such human agents can truly be called vicars of Christ. Couple this with the teaching of St. Ignatius of Antioch that the bishop holds the place of God on earth, and the teaching of Vatican 2 that all bishops are truly vicars of Christ, I don't believe there can be a valid objection to the statement that the Pope of Rome is the vicar of Christ on earth.


So then you are saying that the Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope of Rome is THE vicar of Christ......but rather that he is A vicar of Christ.

Interesting. I have never heard that before.

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: mardukm] #410058 12/30/14 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mardukm
Dear brother Recluse,

Bishop Kyrillos Samaan is the vicar of Christ for the eparchial Church of Assyut.

Patriarch Ibrahim is the vicar of Christ for the patriarchal Church of Alexandria (Catholic, of course).

Pope Francis is the vicar of Christ for the Church universal.


That is what I was saying. You claim that they are ALL vicars of Christ. So the Pope of Rome is not the one and only vicar of Christ. Interesting. I did not know about this teaching in the Latin Church.

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Talon] #410259 01/15/15 09:42 PM
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Pope Francis simply tells it like it is...others misread it because they read something into it that isn't there and judge according to their own mind sets. Jesus had similar reactions from many in his day as he also told it like it is. The church leaders were so convinced he was trying to bring down the established Jewish religion and practices. After all, he dared to eat with sinners. And he told everyone how to treat people, how to value people, and how to confront people.

Christ is in him and that is my hope of God glorified.

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Porter] #410261 01/15/15 10:32 PM
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There is a story about the Mother Superior of the Order of the Holy Spirit meeting with Pope St John XXIII.

She briefly told the Pope, "I am the Superior of the Holy Spirit!"

To which the Pope replied with a smile, "You are ever so lucky! I am just the Vicar of Jesus Christ!"

Alex

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Talon] #410281 01/17/15 10:25 AM
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In this reply I publicly recant ANY and EVERY inference or statement I have posted that would imply or indicate agreement with the position of those who have fallen into the various categories ('uniate', 'byzantine', 'eastern catholic', et al) or other semantic labelings/postures that profess union with fallen and unrepentant Rome. I regret my weakness in re-visiting this collection of forums, and hold no grudge or ill-will toward any individual posting herein. The ecclesiastical landscape is most difficult to navigate for those whose seeking is sincere. I/we remain steadfastly (Eastern) Orthodox, despite having wavered in a momentary weakness... a weakness for which we implore God's forgiveness. Again, it is my intent that this public recanting and explanation stand as my last entry here.

A sinner.

Ivanov

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/63657.htm

Re: "Pope Francis has single-handedly destroyed Catholicism" [Re: Ivanov325] #410282 01/17/15 02:22 PM
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Ivanov,

You have done nothing wrong. If you feel pangs of conscience because of the reading of the article by St Ambrose of Optina - that is another matter.

But if you wish to be steadfastly Orthodox, then you must return to Orthodoxy and follow her canons, decrees and teachings in the jurisdiction in which you will be/are.

As someone who is a sincere Eastern Catholic, I didn't see anything wrong with St Ambrose' letter/article. In fact, he made a number of points which are valid historically.

I would love to read a similar critique (constructive rather than destructive) of Orthodoxy and by an Orthodox Christian.

We are all sinners and we all must repent. We also have the right to defend the Church - which is itself a virtue and a responsibility.

But if you feel you wavered as an Orthodox Christian, you did not do so in favour of the Catholic West/Eastern Catholicism.

You simply wavered, period. We all do. And such experiences can serve to strengthen our faith and our commitment.

Alex

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