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Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Yuhannon] #410333 01/24/15 08:09 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Originally Posted by Yuhannon
A P.S.to be added to the above : we need to get rid of the bunk of "Major Archbishop " and call them what they are PATRIARCHS

I don't think it bunk. Not every primate has the title patriarch. Witness the primates of the Cypriot, Greek, Polish, Czech/Slovak, and Albanian Orthodox Churches. More important than title would be actual jurisdiction over faithful anywhere in the world and true autonomy.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Latin Catholic] #410334 01/24/15 09:28 AM
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Three Cents Offline
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There is a lot for discussion here. First, the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox are now in common theological seminaries like St. Vladimir's and Holy Cross as they work toward realizing the Agreed Statement. This has also been true in the AHOS. The captured bishops are one Eastern Orthodox and one Oriental Orthodox and the martyred driver was an Oriental Orthodox deacon (I believe). Alexandria, Antioch and Romania are the first three Eastern Orthodox Churches to accept the Agreement in concept and the upcoming Great Council has Christians in the Middle East and North Africa high on its agenda. There is a recent news story about two Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs calling for Unity with the Eastern Orthodox. Obviously, St. Vladimir's has a lot at stake with all of this because they educate the North American Oriental Orthodox clergy candidates.
Regarding Eastern Orthodox patriarchs, the Archbishops of Cyprus, Athens and Tirana are Primates of their Churches and Holy Synods. Major Archbishop is a Catholic term that does not exist in Orthodoxy. His Beatitude is the the appropriate address for the archbishop or metropolitan who is the primate of an autocephalous or autonomous church. Eastern Catholicism has a very large divergence with Orthodoxy in their respective ecclesiologies, of course.
Christ Is Among Us! Indeed He Is And Ever Shall Be!

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410336 01/24/15 11:49 AM
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Dear Yuhannon,

Given the theological agreements between the Oriental Orthodox Churches and Rome, the Oriental Churches are not considered "heretical" by the West at all.

Ultimately, from the traditionalist RC perspective, as Peter has mentioned, the Eastern Orthodox would similarly be deemed "heretical" for not accepting the papal primacy and the other dogmas that have developed in the West since the East-West split. But that is not obtained from Rome's vantage point today.

(Rome herself is indeed still considered "heretical" by Orthodoxy in general - please correct me if I am wrong.)

Also, my point about EC's returning to the Mother Orthodox Churches would only occur some time in the future when Rome, the EC's and the Orthodox Churches embrace one another in a mutual act of love and reunion.

When and under what circumstances that would occur is in God's Hands!

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Three Cents] #410337 01/24/15 11:49 AM
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Well said, Three Cents!

God bless St Vladimir's Seminary for its leadership in all this!

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #410338 01/24/15 11:51 AM
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Dear Father Deacon Lance,

I wonder how the term "Major Archbishop" came to be by Rome?

Did it mean to describe the EC Primate as the "First Archbishop" or something like that?

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Latin Catholic] #410340 01/24/15 01:38 PM
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Dr. Roman, please see this scholarly work:

http://www.dharmaramjournals.in/ArticleDetails.aspx?AID=12



Cleri sanctitati c. 335 states:

§1 The Catholicos who does not have the title of patriarch is equal to an archbishop.

§2 The metropolitan who has the title and dignity of a maphrian is equal to an archbishop, without prejudice to the duties which come from his subjection to the authority of the patriarch, and excluding the rights mentioned in cc. 331, 334, and others regarding the pallium.
2. The Figure of Catholicos in Motu Proprio Cleri Sanctitati

The previous code, CICO, included the juridical institution Catholicos in the code itself and not for the particular law to decide. According to CS, the Catholicos is a juridical Institution endowed with powers of Patriarch but he doesn’t have the title Patriarch. The title of Catholicos was given to the chief hierarch of a Church either because he made use of the universal jurisdiction of Patriarch, or was considered a delegate of the Patriarch ad universitatem causarum.[14] In the present day understanding CS c. 335 can be better read as ‘The Catholicos who does not have the title of a Patriarch is equal to a Major Archbishop’. Because in order to distinguish the archbishops, who enjoyed an independent status, from he who enjoyed quasi-patriarchal jurisdiction, the latter are called by Acacius Coussa, Major Archbishops.[15] At the time of the codification of the previous Oriental Code, CICO, the need was felt to find a precise designation for such archbishops. Among the several designations proposed by the consulters, the one proposed in 1930 by Cyril Korolevskij[16] was “archiepiscopus maior.” It was finally accepted and officially used in CS cc. 324-334.

From the analysis of different volumes of Nuntia, we get the reason for the omission of the term “Catholicos” in the redaction process of the Eastern Code. The relator, Ivan Žužek, proposed to add a paragraph on Catholicos who is equal to Major Archbishop according to CS, c. 335 §1. But the coetus decided to keep a single title in the entire Code to designate a hierarchical head who, though not patriarch, presides over an entire Eastern Church.[17] The coetus felt that the maintenance of different titles like Catholicos, Archbishop, Maphrian, Metropolitan etc., adds nothing new except the indication of principal sees.

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410347 01/25/15 01:29 PM
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Dear Sir,

Please call me "Alex!" I only use "Dr Roman" when making restaurant reservations! smile

How fascinating! Thank you for sharing this! Could you explain to me what a "Chor-episcopus" is?" Is it in fact a bishop of a particular rank?

The Rev. Fr. Professor Petro Bilaniuk (memory eternal!) of St Michael's University was wrote an article about the UGCC Primate assuming the title of "Catholicos" ("Toward Our Own Catholicosate" - I forget the year).

It was the first time I've ever come across the idea of a Catholicos for a Church of the Byzantine tradition . . .

In actual fact, the Oriental Orthodox Churches and their EC counterparts appear to get so many things right so as to put us Byzantine EC's to shame . . .

And the reason why the UGCC balks at the title "Major Archbishop" is because it is the largest EC Church which somehow cannot have its own patriarchate canonically recognized by Rome (in what seems to be a contravention of what the Decree on the EC Churches suggested in this department).

I remember when our old Patriarch-Confessor Josef Cardinal Slipyj was around and he always signed himself as "Patriarch and Cardinal" which there were whole pockets in his Church that refused to acknowledge him as such.

Today, we have the situation where the UGCC faithful and clergy readily commemorates our current primate as "Patriarch" - but he himself will not refer to himself as such (or has something changed that I'm not aware of?).

Cheers, Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #410349 01/25/15 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

How fascinating! Thank you for sharing this! Could you explain to me what a "Chor-episcopus" is?" Is it in fact a bishop of a particular rank?
Originally, the Chorepiscopus was the bishop of the non-Metropolitan regions, subordinate to the Metropolitan for ordination of all ranks beyond the subdiaconate. Today the rank is given as honorary for priests - usually married priests - similar to the Byzantine 'archimandrite' or 'protopresbyter'. They are allowed to wear the episcopal insignia and hue, except the icons.

Quote
The Rev. Fr. Professor Petro Bilaniuk (memory eternal!) of St Michael's University was wrote an article about the UGCC Primate assuming the title of "Catholicos" ("Toward Our Own Catholicosate" - I forget the year).

It was the first time I've ever come across the idea of a Catholicos for a Church of the Byzantine tradition . . .
That would be unique, however, the Georgians have had a Catholicos-Patriarch since they were connected to Syriac Antioch/Armenia at one time.

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410350 01/25/15 04:20 PM
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Thank you sir!

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Latin Catholic] #410374 01/29/15 12:42 AM
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Shlomo Alex,

My point is a legalistic one. None of the Oriental Orthodox nor the Church of the East accept all the Ecumenical Councils, therefore, any Eastern Catholics would be in heresy.

I personally think that what should be done is for an Ecumenical Council to be called in which ALL the major points covered previously would be affirmed/reaffirmed. Those that no longer apply dumped. And those that need to be modified so that a better understanding is achieved. That way all of us who hold to the Apostolic Faith can become one.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Last edited by Yuhannon; 01/29/15 12:43 AM.
Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Yuhannon] #410378 01/29/15 12:52 PM
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Shlomo Yuhannon,

You've put your finger on a very crucial matter that is central to the theological discussions around Christology between the EO, OO and ACofE Churches.

The first question is simply - if a Church does not accept this or that Council deemed Ecumenical by others, but not by it nor by the family of Churches to which it belongs - does this mean that it denies orthodox Christology?

The same applies to the issue of the veneration of icons/images - if the OO Churches don't accept, and they don't, the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the "Roman province of the West" (Rome and Constantinople), then that should imply that those Churches don't have icons or images . . . And that conclusion would, of course, be false as they do.

Even the Assyrian Church of the East does not forbid images, venerates the Cross etc. There is a group of Assyrian monastics situated in an abandoned EO monastery on Mt Athos and while they don't deny the veneration of images, they find the plethora of icons in that Church somewhat daunting and want to move elsewhere . . .

Rome and the Assyrian Church of the East, as well as the OO Churches, have signed Christological agreements which mean that Christology is no longer an issue between them. And the OO theologians engaged in dialogue with the EO Churches have affirmed that there is nothing in the "four later Councils of the West" that they would disagree with, except that the crises that precipitated the calling of those Councils did not exist among the Oriental Churches, they were not present at those Councils and so they don't see why they have to accept them.

I see your point, sir, but I highly doubt that there is any charge of "heresy" involved today regarding the acceptance of the "later Councils of the Western provinces." wink

I visited a Coptic Orthodox Church near us (we have about 35 Coptic Churches in the Toronto area now) and went to their bookstore/giftshop where I bought an icon of the Oriental Orthodox Saint Dioscoros, pope of Alexandria. The two men in the shop became somewhat startled as they knew me to be an EC . . .

Then they smiled broadly and shrugged their shoulders as if to say, "We are living in truly ecumenical times . . ."

Cheers,

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #410393 01/30/15 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

Even the Assyrian Church of the East does not forbid images, venerates the Cross etc. There is a group of Assyrian monastics situated in an abandoned EO monastery on Mt Athos and while they don't deny the veneration of images, they find the plethora of icons in that Church somewhat daunting and want to move elsewhere . . .
After you stated this Alex, I had to look them up. They say they are under the Patriarch Mar Äbdiyeşü XVII
http://ib.frath.net/w/Mar_%C3%84bdiye%C5%9F%C3%BC_XVII

Isn't the picture Mar Dinkha? Who is Mar Äbdiyeşü XVII?

Last edited by Michael_Thoma; 01/30/15 12:04 PM.
Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410518 02/11/15 05:27 AM
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"Ill Bethisad Wiki" is not a real source. It states on its main page that:

Quote
For over fifteen years, Ill Bethisad has been a collaborative effort in shared-universe building. Part alt-history, part conculture, Ill Bethisad is an alternate timeline created by a dedicated group of conculturists. If you are unfamiliar with it, please have a look at this short description or, better yet, visit IB's homepage.


Accordingly, any information you find there about the "Monastery of St. Thomas" or "Mar Abdiyesu XVII", or for that matter "Pope John XXIIJ" is pure fiction (though quite entertaining).

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Michael_Thoma] #410522 02/11/15 10:21 AM
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Dear Michael Thoma,

I've no idea . . . Our local Chaldean priest told me about them.

From what I've learned about the Assyrians over the years, it seems to me that other Churches appear not to take their commitment to their tradition all that seriously. By this I mean that they can sometimes be seen as "wayward Christians" who need to simply be brought into union with this or that Orthodox Church or with Rome. The Russian Orthodox Church sent a missionary to them (I forget his name) who dedicated his life to bringing as many Assyrians as possible into union with Moscow (a large number of Assyrians were received into the ROC in the U.S., I believe). And today there are twice as many Chaldeans in union with Rome as there are Assyrians.

I'll have to find out about an update with respect to the Athonite situation.

Alex

Re: New Metropolitan Church of Eritrea [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #410525 02/11/15 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Michael Thoma,

I've no idea . . . Our local Chaldean priest told me about them.

[...]

I'll have to find out about an update with respect to the Athonite situation.

Alex


Regarding "Mar Abdiyesu" and "the Athonite stuation", perhaps you could refer us to a specific, verifiable source? Otherwise, please see my recent post on this thread. There is, frankly, a good chance the whole thing is pure fiction.

None of this, I might add, seems particularly relevant to the original post.

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