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Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox #411441 05/10/15 07:06 PM
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LibCath2000 Offline OP
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I wanted to know if someone here knew how commonplace it has been in recent memory for canonical Eastern Orthodox prelates to "gift" episcopal (little e) gifts to non-Orthodox prelates?

Gifts including pectoral crosses, engolpions, and other vestments typically reserved for bishops?

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411445 05/11/15 09:33 AM
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It's fairly common:

Ecumenical Patriarch to Cardinal Tagle -
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5dcUBTyQU7EJ:www.rappler.com/nation/86086-cardinal-tagle-patriarch-bartholomew-philippines+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Bishop Hilarion to Cardinal Bertone -
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6457


Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Michael_Thoma] #411446 05/11/15 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
It's fairly common:

Ecumenical Patriarch to Cardinal Tagle -
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:5dcUBTyQU7EJ:www.rappler.com/nation/86086-cardinal-tagle-patriarch-bartholomew-philippines+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Bishop Hilarion to Cardinal Bertone -
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6457



Thanks Michael_Thoma.

Although, I now realized that I should have asked if the giving of these gifts to "non-Orthodox, non-Roman Catholics" was in fact common. Since I too have seen these gifts given to RC's plenty of times.

The reason I asked originally was because I recently attended an Episcopal (big e) consecration where two Eastern Orthodox prelates gifted such items to the new bishop.

It was a welcome ecumenical gesture and one which, at least to me, seemed to imply a recognition of not only Anglican ministry in general, but to the episcopacy itself as maintained in the Episcopal Church.

Of course, this was my own interpretation, but it was based in large part to the speeches that the prelates delivered at the service.

Anyway, this was the first time that I know of a diocesan bishop of the Episcopal Church receiving such an honor, including from the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411448 05/11/15 11:53 AM
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Was the bishop a part of one of The Episcopal Church breakaways? Some Orthodox - including former Met. Jonah - were supportive of the more theologically conservative, Apostolically-minded groups.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411450 05/11/15 12:04 PM
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Moscow Patriarchs have gifted pectoral crosses to Lutheran and other Protestant clergy, especially during ecumenical meetings and the like which events are sporadically reported on in the Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Michael_Thoma] #411451 05/11/15 12:06 PM
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Actually, such gifts of pectoral crosses and religious books to Protestant clergy by Orthodox prelates are definitely NOT a reognition of anyting involving Anglican/Episcopal orders and the like.

They are simply good-will gestures and nothing more.

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Michael_Thoma] #411452 05/11/15 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Was the bishop a part of one of The Episcopal Church breakaways? Some Orthodox - including former Met. Jonah - were supportive of the more theologically conservative, Apostolically-minded groups.


No, the consecration was for a bishop of The Episcopal Church.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411453 05/11/15 01:54 PM
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Alex,

Thank you for your replies.

Assuredly, this particular case of gift-giving within the context of the liturgy was not a statement on the Eastern view of Anglican orders.

However, it was definitely a generous ecumenical gesture from some of the highest profile figures of the Eastern Orthodox world. This helped to make it feel like something more than just a goodwill platitude. It was significant to have one of our bishops gifted with items that, to my knowledge, are usually reserved for bishops.

The gifts included the pectoral cross, an engolpion, an omophorion, an epitrachelion, among others, of which I do not know the names.

I should also point out that I'm definitely NOT an Episcopalian who seeks the approval of our orders from either Rome or Constantinople - but nevertheless the rapprochement between some sectors of the Orthodox world and the Episcopal Church remains heartening for me. Although I am sure many would not agree.

In any event, my question regarded the commonality of this practice, which I suppose from your answer, is nothing out of the ordinary. But I was happy to see it firsthand anyway.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411493 05/13/15 06:14 PM
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Ah, you are an Episcopalian!

I belong to your Society of King Charles the Martyr and also to the Society of Mary and Our Lady of Walsingham (there are both RC's and Orthodox who belong as well).

I'm also very much fascinated by Nicholas Ferrar and his family of Little Gidding. The man pulsated holiness and Christian love, as you know!

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411505 05/15/15 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Ah, you are an Episcopalian!

I belong to your Society of King Charles the Martyr and also to the Society of Mary and Our Lady of Walsingham (there are both RC's and Orthodox who belong as well).

I'm also very much fascinated by Nicholas Ferrar and his family of Little Gidding. The man pulsated holiness and Christian love, as you know!

Alex


Yes, were it not for Ferrar and his community, the revival of religious life within Anglicanism may not have happened.

In fact, at the Consecration I was mentioning earlier, a number of folks representing a variety of our Episcopal religious orders were present.

Also, there is now a link to photos from the Consecration which show a few shots of the Eastern hierarchs who were present, including H.E. Alexios of Atlanta and H.E. Nektarios of Jerusalem.

And our own Eastern Church, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church was also present, represented by Mar Theodosius of North America and Europe.

In fact, this was the first consecration, I believe in our history, where bishops from all of our full communion partners were present.

If interested in the photos here is the link:

Flickr Stream

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411506 05/15/15 10:49 AM
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Very nice indeed!

I got to know Bishop Henry Hill who, as you know, authored books on the Eastern Churches and who, in his retirement, stayed at the monastery of the Sisters of St John the Divine here in Toronto.

They have a beautiful chapel and they serve amputees. When my mother had her leg amputated, she spent several weeks there and the good Sisters took her by wheelchair to their chapel.

It made such an impression on my mother that she always insisted on me taking her to the chapel when I came to visit her. I have a copy of their (very nicely written Byzantine) icon of their Foundress, Bl. Hannah Grier Coomes who stands with a scroll with the scripture verse, "Do whatever He tells you." My mother wants to go back there on retreat one day and still keeps the icon with her other icons in her residential room.

I know that the Ferrar family had a Gospel Harmony which they read in part at the end of their hourly psalms (as they prayed psalms every hour for 15 hours throughout the day, I assume there were ten psalms in each group). This allowed them to read the Gospels in their entirety in one month and the "heads" which Bl. Nicholas created amounted to 150.

Would you know if anyone has ever re-published this Harmony?

It would be amazing to have a religious Order today which could recreate as fully as possible the spiritual life of the Ferrar household!

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411507 05/15/15 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Ah, you are an Episcopalian!

I belong to your Society of King Charles the Martyr and also to the Society of Mary and Our Lady of Walsingham (there are both RC's and Orthodox who belong as well).

I'm also very much fascinated by Nicholas Ferrar and his family of Little Gidding. The man pulsated holiness and Christian love, as you know!

Alex


Yes, were it not for Ferrar and his community, the revival of religious life within Anglicanism may not have happened.

In fact, at the Consecration I was mentioning earlier, a number of folks representing a variety of our Episcopal religious orders were present.

Also, there is now a link to photos from the Consecration which show a few shots of the Eastern hierarchs who were present, including H.E. Alexios of Atlanta and H.E. Nektarios of Jerusalem.

And our own Eastern Church, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church was also present, represented by Mar Theodosius of North America and Europe.

In fact, this was the first consecration, I believe in our history, where bishops from all of our full communion partners were present.

If interested in the photos here is the link:

Flickr Stream
Thank you for sharing this momentous occasion for your church. The photos are very interesting, to me personally, I find the participation of the Marthoma Syrian Church to be extremely troubling and a step further from its Mother Church. Actions repeatedly show that all the talk of reunion is just double-speak.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Michael_Thoma] #411508 05/15/15 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by LibCath2000
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Ah, you are an Episcopalian!

I belong to your Society of King Charles the Martyr and also to the Society of Mary and Our Lady of Walsingham (there are both RC's and Orthodox who belong as well).

I'm also very much fascinated by Nicholas Ferrar and his family of Little Gidding. The man pulsated holiness and Christian love, as you know!

Alex


Yes, were it not for Ferrar and his community, the revival of religious life within Anglicanism may not have happened.

In fact, at the Consecration I was mentioning earlier, a number of folks representing a variety of our Episcopal religious orders were present.

Also, there is now a link to photos from the Consecration which show a few shots of the Eastern hierarchs who were present, including H.E. Alexios of Atlanta and H.E. Nektarios of Jerusalem.

And our own Eastern Church, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church was also present, represented by Mar Theodosius of North America and Europe.

In fact, this was the first consecration, I believe in our history, where bishops from all of our full communion partners were present.

If interested in the photos here is the link:

Flickr Stream
Thank you for sharing this momentous occasion for your church. The photos are very interesting, to me personally, I find the participation of the Marthoma Syrian Church to be extremely troubling and a step further from its Mother Church. Actions repeatedly show that all the talk of reunion is just double-speak.


Earlier, I had made note that the attendance at this liturgy of some Eastern Orthodox bishops might have been troublesome for some.

But I did not anticipate that the Mar Thoma presence would elicit a similar reaction since, after all, they are AND have remained full communion partners of the Episcopal Church.

Now, reunion talks amongst all of the direct "descendants" of St. Thomas in India makes sense. But in reality, these discussions are likely to be as fruitful (or not), as current Roman/Orthodox talks or Oriental/Eastern talks.

In the quest for unity, we all have much to overcome to be sure.

But in my opinion, the Mar Thoma, as a fully Reformed and episcopal church, remains best situated within the Anglican Communion, just as much as the Coptic Orthodox are best situated alongside the Syriac Orthodox etc.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411509 05/15/15 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Very nice indeed!

I got to know Bishop Henry Hill who, as you know, authored books on the Eastern Churches and who, in his retirement, stayed at the monastery of the Sisters of St John the Divine here in Toronto.

They have a beautiful chapel and they serve amputees. When my mother had her leg amputated, she spent several weeks there and the good Sisters took her by wheelchair to their chapel.

It made such an impression on my mother that she always insisted on me taking her to the chapel when I came to visit her. I have a copy of their (very nicely written Byzantine) icon of their Foundress, Bl. Hannah Grier Coomes who stands with a scroll with the scripture verse, "Do whatever He tells you." My mother wants to go back there on retreat one day and still keeps the icon with her other icons in her residential room.

I know that the Ferrar family had a Gospel Harmony which they read in part at the end of their hourly psalms (as they prayed psalms every hour for 15 hours throughout the day, I assume there were ten psalms in each group). This allowed them to read the Gospels in their entirety in one month and the "heads" which Bl. Nicholas created amounted to 150.

Would you know if anyone has ever re-published this Harmony?

It would be amazing to have a religious Order today which could recreate as fully as possible the spiritual life of the Ferrar household!

Alex


Thank you for sharing that story about your mother and the work of the Sisters.

I truly admire anyone who consecrates themselves to the service of God's people.

I also spoke with one of the best sources of English, Anglican music I know of about the Harmony you mentioned, and he had not heard of anything besides the historical record.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411511 05/15/15 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000
Earlier, I had made note that the attendance at this liturgy of some Eastern Orthodox bishops might have been troublesome for some.

But I did not anticipate that the Mar Thoma presence would elicit a similar reaction since, after all, they are AND have remained full communion partners of the Episcopal Church.

Now, reunion talks amongst all of the direct "descendants" of St. Thomas in India makes sense. But in reality, these discussions are likely to be as fruitful (or not), as current Roman/Orthodox talks or Oriental/Eastern talks.

In the quest for unity, we all have much to overcome to be sure.

But in my opinion, the Mar Thoma, as a fully Reformed and episcopal church, remains best situated within the Anglican Communion, just as much as the Coptic Orthodox are best situated alongside the Syriac Orthodox etc.
You are probably right. What is disconcerting to me is that for almost a decade the Marthoma Syrians have been supportive of groups like ACNA/REC and the Global South, publicly distancing itself from TEC. In addition the head Metropolitan in India requested a private meeting with the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch when the latter traveled to India earlier this year, the rumor that talks were on how to begin to lead toward full Communion. In addition, Marthoma Syriacs do not ordain women - although the current head has stated that he finds 'nothing theologically against' it, but that his 'people won't accept it' - I'm not sure which I find more troubling in that statement. That he finds nothing wrong with it, or that despite finding nothing wrong, he refuses to do so because of the sentiments of the majority.

My angst is due to my background I suppose - I am Malankara Syriac Catholic. The EO bishops attending were a curiosity to me, but from my vantage their non-participation didn't raise any red flags. I did wonder why they were there.

Last edited by Michael_Thoma; 05/15/15 03:59 PM.
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