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Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411513
05/16/15 03:58 AM
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Here in Philadelphia, assisting retired Bishop Rodney Michel of the Episcopal Church has and wears a panagia and a Russian pectoral cross, gifts from Orthodox bishops. My guess is Orthodox bishops often give those goodwill gifts. A way of saying while Orthodoxy in itself has true holy orders, non-Orthodox ones "are a mystery."

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: The young fogey] #411515
05/16/15 05:12 AM
05/16/15 05:12 AM
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Dear Serge,

This brings up the idea of "ekonomia" in Orthodoxy.

I always thought it meant that the Orthodox would be willing to consecrate bishops of non-Orthodox groups so they would have the full sacramental life (Bulgakov?).

Am I wrong? Could you explain that?

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411517
05/16/15 01:58 PM
05/16/15 01:58 PM
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LibCath2000 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Serge,

This brings up the idea of "ekonomia" in Orthodoxy.

I always thought it meant that the Orthodox would be willing to consecrate bishops of non-Orthodox groups so they would have the full sacramental life (Bulgakov?).

Am I wrong? Could you explain that?

Alex


Curious ... So if Orthodox "ekonomia" is not being used in the manner Alex is suggesting ... especially when concerning the gifting of vestments ... then ... when Eastern bishops have gifted FULL Orthodox bishop regalia to non-Orthodox ... these should just be taken to be "costumes" by the receivers, no?

It just seems that there are a lot less ambiguous gifts that could be given.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411522
05/16/15 09:38 PM
05/16/15 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Serge,

This brings up the idea of "ekonomia" in Orthodoxy.

I always thought it meant that the Orthodox would be willing to consecrate bishops of non-Orthodox groups so they would have the full sacramental life (Bulgakov?).

Am I wrong? Could you explain that?

Alex


Curious ... So if Orthodox "ekonomia" is not being used in the manner Alex is suggesting ... especially when concerning the gifting of vestments ... then ... when Eastern bishops have gifted FULL Orthodox bishop regalia to non-Orthodox ... these should just be taken to be "costumes" by the receivers, no?

It just seems that there are a lot less ambiguous gifts that could be given.
In a sense, yes. It is a sort of costume. If an Eastern Catholic bishop receives it, one could assume it would be put to use. Or if a Latin bishop receives a pectoral cross or hand cross he could potentially use it at an Eastern Liturgy.

When would the Episcopalian use Eastern gear? The Mar Thoma vestment does not incorporate any of the EO given gear, and wearing it during a typical Anglican service would come off silly.

Unless Mrs. Rt.Rev. Eaton is willing to be cloistered in a convent, the chance the EO will consecrate him is slim and that he will accept is slimmer; the odds that Mrs. will cloister is null.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411524
05/17/15 02:36 AM
05/17/15 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Serge,

This brings up the idea of "ekonomia" in Orthodoxy.

I always thought it meant that the Orthodox would be willing to consecrate bishops of non-Orthodox groups so they would have the full sacramental life (Bulgakov?).

Am I wrong? Could you explain that?

Alex


It's wrong about Orthodoxy, and not what Catholicism teaches either. Because each of the ancient apostolic churches (we and the Orthodox being the two biggest) claims to be the true one. (So the Oriental communion and the Assyrians historically thought both we and the Orthodox were graceless Western heretics. Both are more Eastern than Orthodoxy.) So a Catholic or Orthodox bishop co-consecrating a bishop outside his church wouldn't make sense. Given Orthodox sacramentology, which favors the view that outside the church there are no valid sacraments, especially so of Orthodoxy.

So historically the Eastern churches' bishops haven't done it. Since the beginning of the episcopi vagantes movement, in the 1800s, Eastern bishops have been very trusting, receiving and ordaining Western converts who soon abandoned them for their own ecclesiastical adventures (my source: Peter Anson's Bishops at Large). Because of that, many little "independent Catholic churches" claim Eastern "lines of succession," which is based on our doctrine of holy orders (per St. Augustine); the Eastern churches have no such defined doctrine. (The Orthodox don't talk about "lines of succession" even though they claim and indeed have them; they talk first about being in the church as the criterion for real holy orders.) Such independent churches often now claim to be Orthodox, and are accepted as such by Westerners, both owing to ignorance in the West about the Christian East.

So sure, Orthodox bishops giving non-Orthodox bishops Orthodox insignia is confusing. See my earlier post; they're not being hypocrites (I'm not offended, including when Anglican bishops receive these gifts) but reverently agnostic about non-Orthodox churches. God founded the church and its orders; he's not limited by them.

Then there's how the range of Orthodox opinion on non-Orthodox churches affects Greek Catholics. The Orthodox are allowed to believe you're frauds, as if a Methodist minister suited up and did the Divine Liturgy. But the Orthodox have often recognized Catholic orders, mirroring our recognition of theirs. (Often especially treating ex-Greek Catholics like formerly estranged Orthodox rather than new converts: economic reception; no rebaptisms, rechristmations, or reordinations.) The difference is that recognition is our defined doctrine but not theirs. In other words, we recognize Orthodox clergy thanks to St. Augustine's view of lines of succession, even outside the church, being defined as our doctrine.

By the way, here are our criteria for valid orders, which I would say define who is a Catholic or estranged Catholic rather than a Protestant: credal orthodoxy so basic the Assyrians pass, unbroken apostolic succession, and unbroken true teaching about the Eucharist (why the Anglicans aren't in the club, says Catholicism).

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: The young fogey] #411535
05/18/15 05:30 PM
05/18/15 05:30 PM
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So it is (and has been) possible to get Orthodox bishops to consecrate someone a bishop if one is/becomes Orthodox, even though he later leaves to do his own thing.

In that case, however, "stand alone episcopal orders" and lines of succession would only be said to be "valid" from within the Catholic POV. For Orthodoxy, one must still be in communion with the Orthodox Church for valid orders.

Yet, the argument has been made in the past that the presence of, say, Assyrian bishops and Polish National Catholic bishops at Anglican epliscopal consecrations would be an indication that the bishops consecrated are indeed in the line of Apostolic Succession etc.

During a Catholic-Anglican ecumenical meeting in Toronto some years back, the suggestion was made by an RC cardinal that if the Anglicans altered wording in their ordination ceremonial, then Rome would be willing to recognize their orders . . .

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #411544
05/19/15 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Yet, the argument has been made in the past that the presence of, say, Assyrian bishops and Polish National Catholic bishops at Anglican episcopal consecrations would be an indication that the bishops consecrated are indeed in the line of Apostolic Succession etc.

As I wrote, neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox Church teaches that. Only the Anglicans themselves believe it.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
During a Catholic-Anglican ecumenical meeting in Toronto some years back, the suggestion was made by an RC cardinal that if the Anglicans altered wording in their ordination ceremonial, then Rome would be willing to recognize their orders . . .

Alex

Not true, and that's not why Pope Leo XIII ruled against Anglican orders. The 1662 ordinal is arguably orthodox but the chain of apostolicity was broken when the Anglicans broke with Catholic Eucharistic teaching, with the 1552 Book of Common Prayer.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: The young fogey] #411551
05/20/15 04:33 AM
05/20/15 04:33 AM
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Well, it's true that that was what was reported the Cardinal saying to the Anglicans.

However Rome and Canterbury work things out in future, I'm gratified that there is such a thing as the Ordinariate for Anglicans (and also Lutherans) who wish to become Catholic.

The Anglican converts to the Ordinariate that I know (and many of them remain within the Anglican devotional societies they have always been members of) eschew the term "convert" but rather prefer to say they are Anglicans who "have reconciled with Rome." The same is true of the Lutherans I've met who've done the same.

For me, the "High Church" movement, even withinn Presbyterianism, is just so very fascinating. All roads eventually lead to Rome, as one such Presbyterian minister ( a member of the Benedictine Oblates) said.

Alex

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411560
05/20/15 01:13 PM
05/20/15 01:13 PM
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We can all agree that inter-church relationships are complex.

I have found it curious that there always seems to be THE “official” line every church maintains on paper, (usually proclaimed most ardently by the laity of each group) and then the de facto position, which tends to be slightly more accommodating (to varying degrees, depending on the group), that is held mainly by hierarchs and theologians. And in some instances, this “model” is even reversed.

The point being, that there is definitely ambiguity amongst churches.

For instance, the Roman Catholic communion officially acknowledges that the Eastern Orthodox churches are truly churches. But this is not always and everywhere reciprocated.

And since there was mention of St. Thomas Christians earlier, it is interesting to note that amongst the Malankara Orthodox churches, there is a closer relationship and recognition between them and the Mar Thoma Church in India, then with the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. A point that I remember reading on this Forum some years ago.

Also, the creation of the Personal Ordinariates for former Anglicans was an interesting development from Rome’s part, as it recognized elements of validity of an otherwise “invalid” ecclesial community. But no such a “setup” exists in reverse, as the Anglican position is that the Roman Catholic Church, while indeed a Church, maintains theological positions that bar full communion. Not so different from Rome’s position on the Orthodox.

But I think that the “reverently agnostic” position, which Serge mentioned, vis-à-vis the sacrament of ordination, is probably the most charitable attitude that “catholic” churches not in communion with one another can have.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411571
05/21/15 04:34 PM
05/21/15 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000
And since there was mention of St. Thomas Christians earlier, it is interesting to note that amongst the Malankara Orthodox churches, there is a closer relationship and recognition between them and the Mar Thoma Church in India, then with the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. A point that I remember reading on this Forum some years ago.


While I would concede a "closer relationship" between the Orthodox Church(es) in India and the Mar Thoma Church than between the former and the Malankara Catholic Church, I'm not sure I would agree that this extends to "recognition". I suppose it depends what you mean by "recognition", though.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411573
05/21/15 07:10 PM
05/21/15 07:10 PM
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But I think that the “reverently agnostic” position, which Serge mentioned, vis-à-vis the sacrament of ordination, is probably the most charitable attitude that “catholic” churches not in communion with one another can have.


In all charity, Pope Leo XVIII's Apostolic Curae is as far from agnostic on the sacrament of orders. I agree being respectful of clergy from the various ecclesial communities that sprang up at the time of the Reformation is the correct thing to do. (as is using proper titles for their clergy) Yet, and forgive me if I sound like one of the most ardent laity, we should speak the Truth of our Churches teachings on all issues. For Catholics and Orthodox (theologian,bishops, laity) the teachings on the orders of Anglicans is pretty clear.

While, I don't think it is wrong to give gifts (such as a cross) at ordinations at non-Catholic or Orthodox ordinations, I do believe gifting an entire set of Eastern Episcopal vestments to be a bit over the top. It could lead people to believe that the Orthodox Church recognized the episcopacy of, in this case, the Episcopal Church, which it clearly does not.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 05/22/15 06:22 AM.
Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411578
05/22/15 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LibCath2000

And since there was mention of St. Thomas Christians earlier, it is interesting to note that amongst the Malankara Orthodox churches, there is a closer relationship and recognition between them and the Mar Thoma Church in India, then with the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. A point that I remember reading on this Forum some years ago.

I don't really think that this is the case - for instance, the Malankara Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Catholics can have intercommunion in certain conditions. This is never true for Marthoma and Malankara Catholic. The Malankara Orthodox are welcome to receive in the Malankara Catholic Church but discouraged by their own bishops. The Malankara Orthodox, Malankara Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Catholics do not dispute the legitimacy of each other's orders - although the jurisdiction/terminology of each other's head bishop is in dispute. However, on the ground the interaction is much more cordial. All three are friendly with the Marthoma Church officially, but at a safe distance - however, it is true that the 'safe distance' varies on the ground.

As far as sacrements - for instance chrismation - the earlier 3 recognize each other, without condition. The Marthoma chrismation/confirmation is never accepted. The same applies to priesthood.


Just saw this story:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...r-baptism-to-go-before-church-of-england

I wonder if it will be recognized by CoE communion partners and sister churches. Another reason why the RC-CoE/EO-CoE/OO-CoE/ACoE-CoE dialogue is a complete waste of time.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411582
05/22/15 05:46 PM
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I actually agree that any Anglican/Roman Catholic dialogue that has the intent of some kind of eventual, corporate ecclesial unity is absolutely ludicrous.

However, we should always maintain open channels for dialogue on common cause issues like poverty, hunger, etc.

And the "charitable" Roman position that Nelson has suggested is actually not charitable at all (except of course to Roman Catholics themselves) Which is why I said earlier that the Orthodox ekonomia model is a much more tenable approach to ecumenism.

The truth is ... Roman Catholicism's positions on Anglicans do come off as mean spirited. But this doesn't mean we Anglicans necessarily care ... It is what it is.

But that some Orthodox prelates show us so much more respect, while not needed by us for any kind of validation, is both welcomed and appreciated.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: LibCath2000] #411583
05/22/15 08:08 PM
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And the "charitable" Roman position that Nelson has suggested is actually not charitable at all (except of course to Roman Catholics themselves) Which is why I said earlier that the Orthodox ekonomia model is a much more tenable approach to ecumenism.


First, I am a Byzantine Catholic not a Roman. grin

I find nothing uncharitable in my previous statement.

I would be uncharitable if I sugar coated the already settled position of the Catholic Church, both Eastern and Western, on Anglican (and other protestant) clergy.

You are mistaken if you think the Orthodox hold a different opinion on Anglican orders than the Catholic Church. All Anglican clergy (and yes sometimes even Catholic ones) received into the Orthodox Church are received as laymen and if called to be Orthodox clerics ordained again. This is not to take anything away from their previous ministry but it is required as they were never deacons, priests, or bishops in Apostolic succession from an Orthodox and Catholic view.

The Orthodox would not and have not used ekonomia when it comes to Anglican clerics being received an deacons, priests, and bishops.

Re: Orthodox Gifts of Episcopal Office to non-Orthodox [Re: Nelson Chase] #411584
05/23/15 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
And the "charitable" Roman position that Nelson has suggested is actually not charitable at all (except of course to Roman Catholics themselves) Which is why I said earlier that the Orthodox ekonomia model is a much more tenable approach to ecumenism.


First, I am a Byzantine Catholic not a Roman. grin


I never said that you were ... Only that you stated the Roman position, which as a Byzantine Catholic ... You do share.

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
I find nothing uncharitable in my previous statement.


Of course you wouldn't ... Which is why I made the point that only Roman Catholics (and in this case those in union with them) would think so.

But the actions by some Orthodox hierarchs throughout history have shown that their APPROACH to Anglicans have indeed been distinctive from that of Roman Catholics.

It is a known fact that there was a time, albeit brief, that Orthodox faithful were commended to the spiritual care of Episcopal ministers here in America. And while this arrangement has ended ... it had nothing to do with Roman or Eastern Catholics.

Rome and Canterbury, despite recent ecumenical overtures have had a frosty relationship. However, our relationship with the Ecumenical Patriarchate remains much more friendly and warm.


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