The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
son of the desert, chchannel, OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog
5656 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 155 guests, and 158 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,877
Posts412,856
Members5,656
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Tomassus] #412195 07/03/15 11:05 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
mardukm Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
Dear MalpanaGiwargis,

The Missal of St. Pius V was not the unilateral work of the Pope, nor was it his own initiative. Rather it was the Council Fathers who requested the Liturgy to be standardized as part of the remedy against Protestantism. One of the points brought up by detractors of Vatican 1 was the inordinate control that Pius IX had over the proceedings of the Council. In previous ecumenical Councils, such as Trent, the Fathers did everything and the Pope confirmed. At the Vatican Council, the Fathers suggested, and the final decision lay with the Pope (though this change in procedure was actually provided by none other than Hefele, simply for the sole purpose of establishing good order for the largest gathering of bishops in history thus far).

Thus it was at Trent. It was the Council fathers' initiative that the Liturgy should be standardized, and the Pope accordingly responded.

Blessings

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Tomassus] #412196 07/03/15 11:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
mardukm Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
Dear Peter J,

I seriously wonder where I stated "the fact that the Orthodox do not agree with the filioque is a reason for saying it in the creed."

Blessings

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: mardukm] #412197 07/03/15 11:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 72
M
MalpanaGiwargis Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 72
Dear mardukm,

Though the Council of Trent left the decision to the Pope, the two bulls promulgating the Breviary and the Missal, Quod a nobis (1568) and Quo primum (1570), respectively, are published in St. Pius V's name and on his authority, though he does mention the charge he was given by the Council. However, I still don't see how a bishop could lawfully change the Creed in his diocese after this point. In Quo primum, after permission for rites and usages 200 years or older to continue, we read:

Quote
We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.


Emphasis mine. And there is more language similar to the above in the bull. Later Gallican changes seem to be contra legem, and were most likely tolerated for reasons of political expedience, not because the bishops were actually free to change the liturgical decisions of Rome. I think the bishops should be free to regulate the liturgy in their diocese, but what I would like and what is are different things!

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: mardukm] #412198 07/03/15 12:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by mardukm
Having the original creed in the Eastern and Oriental Churches is one thing. Having it in the Latin Church is another. I doubt any such change will occur until there is greater and more official recognition on the part of the Orthodox that the filioque per se is not heretical, according to the Latin theology, and has never been used in an heretical sense in the Latin Church.


Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Tomassus] #412199 07/03/15 02:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
mardukm Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
Dear MalpanaGiwargis,

I'm not claiming the bishops can stop saying the filioque on their own authority. I don't believe individual bishops have the authority to countermand the prescriptions of an ecumenical council (though our canons permit bishops to grant dispensations according to need even from the universal laws of the Church).

My point was that the directives of the Pope were the directives of the Council as a whole, even if promulgated by his personal authority. There is no example here of a unilateral action by the Pope by which one can conclude that he has such UNILATERAL authority. When the Pope acts as primate of the Church universal, he necessarily acts FOR the Church, according to the needs OF the Church, not for himself nor his personal whims (not saying you are making such a claim, but others might think it).

Blessings

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Tomassus] #412200 07/03/15 02:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
mardukm Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
Dear Peter J,

That's a creative corruption of my statement. I suppose a polemic mind will naturally see polemics everywhere.

Blessings

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: mardukm] #412201 07/03/15 09:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Peter J Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by mardukm
Dear Peter J,

That's a creative corruption of my statement. I suppose a polemic mind will naturally see polemics everywhere.

Blessings

I appreciate your rising-to-the-occasion.

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Peter J] #412203 07/03/15 10:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by mardukm
Having the original creed in the Eastern and Oriental Churches is one thing. Having it in the Latin Church is another. I doubt any such change will occur until there is greater and more official recognition on the part of the Orthodox that the filioque per se is not heretical, according to the Latin theology, and has never been used in an heretical sense in the Latin Church.



Dear Marduk,

You raise a number of issues here and perhaps the last thing we need is yet another thread on the Filioque! smile

The Filioque was something the Latin Church introduced but not at Rome at first - you are absolutely correct.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that if the Pope wished to not change but to RETURN to the original Creed sans Filioque, he most certainly could. And he could do it for the entire Latin Church. It is also doubtless true that such a move would require a period of "education" etc. However, the Nicene Creed is not frquently used by the Latin Church, as is the Apostles' Creed, so other than some very traditionalist/ultramontanist RC's and their ilk, I doubt very much that Latin Catholics would be too concerned by that change. In any event, they are used to hearing from their hierarchy all about "returning to the Primitive usage" etc. They will probably be happy about such a return (as they would should Rome decide to unite with the Eastern world on the old calculation of Easter).

Here I'm talking ONLY about going back to the original Creed. The theology of the Filioque is an entirely separate matter.

It certainly CAN be understood in an heretical sense and this is how the Orthodox East has always understood the meaning of the western use of the Filioque.

But the Creed that we confess, its wording, can be one again (without disallowing Local usages and/or other creedal affirmations). And that is all we can say about that issue.

The Orthodox accept the Filioque ie. the temporal Mission of the Holy Spirit. But as the late Fr. Prof. John Meyendorff wrote, both sides could have the same original Creed AND accept that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son - without adding this to the Creed. "Through the Son" is a much more precise theological formulation than "And the Son" for reasons we all know.

The Filioque, at best, is an expression that derives from the Particular Latin theological/triadological tradition. It can be OK for the Latin Church, but not as something to be imposed on the entire Church. Again, the whole theology of the Filioque would have to be "re-presented" at any future union Council between East and West. The differences can be maintained without them being a reason for separation.

Alex


Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: mardukm] #412204 07/03/15 10:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Originally Posted by mardukm
Dear MalpanaGiwargis,

I'm not claiming the bishops can stop saying the filioque on their own authority. I don't believe individual bishops have the authority to countermand the prescriptions of an ecumenical council (though our canons permit bishops to grant dispensations according to need even from the universal laws of the Church).

My point was that the directives of the Pope were the directives of the Council as a whole, even if promulgated by his personal authority. There is no example here of a unilateral action by the Pope by which one can conclude that he has such UNILATERAL authority. When the Pope acts as primate of the Church universal, he necessarily acts FOR the Church, according to the needs OF the Church, not for himself nor his personal whims (not saying you are making such a claim, but others might think it).

Well, I'm confused royally about the powers of the Pope in accordance with this or that view of the Petrine Primacy (frankly, the issue doesn't interest me at all since it is the way the Pope of today exercises his powers that is normative in any event).

By returning to the original Creed, the Pope is NOT changing the Creed but simply, well, returning. In so doing, he does not have to repudiate the Filioque or its theology or defend its orthodoxy at all. He simply issues a liturgical change.

The rest of the arguments surrounding the Filioque can be hammered out in future.

Meyendorff also affirmed that the Orthodox St Mark of Ephesus went to Florence as a pro-unionist believing that the Latins need not repudiate the Filioque. They only needed to return to the original Creed that was meant to express the faith of the universal Church.

And we know the rest of the story.

Alex

Blessings

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #412206 07/03/15 11:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 15
Ambrosian Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 15
In the event that the clause was dropped, what would the actual consequences be? How would it be perceived?



Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Ambrosian] #412213 07/04/15 02:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
It would depend, I suppose, by whom.

Trads would definitely see this as a "giving in" to the Orthodox (whom they already see as "schismatics") for little or no gain in terms of "getting them to come under Rome."

There are also those Catholics who just find any change suspicious.

However, Rome would have to issue a declaration or a letter of explanation as to why it has now chosen to use the original Creed liturgically.

Given the fact that "what is original" has usually been a kind of "standard of orthodoxy," there really shouldn't be a problem.

Unless, of course, one is suspicious of anything smacking of "returning to origins" in the aftermath of the Novus Ordo (which was, as we recall, likewise promoted as a liturgical return of sorts).

Rome is in the habit of making changes here and there all the time. I'm sure this one won't be ground-breaking should and when it occurs.

Alex

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: Tomassus] #412222 07/04/15 09:35 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
J
JimG Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 396
I would say that in the average Roman parish the priest would not say anything, the missalette would change the prayer at the beginning of the next church year and 99% of the parishioners would continue to recite the filioque just like they have done for the last who knows how many years.

One of the priests at the church we attend never uses the Nicene Creed any way but always recites the Apostles Creed.

The traditionalists who haven't gone away are going to the Latin mass anyway and they don't recite the creed themselves anyway. As long as they can use the same prayer book with the unchanged English translation they probably won't notice either.

Re: Pope: Increase opportunities between Rome and Contantinople [Re: JimG] #412240 07/05/15 11:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,173
Well, because the Nicene Creed is used so seldom in the West, perhaps those reading it when it is used won't notice the change, should there ever be one emanating from Rome.

Certainly, Rome would have to explain/educate as to the reason for the return to the original Creed.

There is so much Roman Catholics were used to liturgically that was jettisoned in the last several decades that this one change, if it occurs, won't be the end of the world.

It took my EC parish quite a while to recite the Nicene Creed without the Filioque, but then again that word has a quite involved history in the Ruthenian Catholic tradition.

My parish choir and readers now use the original Creed without giving it a second thought.

And what is more reliable from both an orthodox and catholic perspective is always what is more ancient.

Alex


Page 2 of 2 1 2

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3