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Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #409498 11/20/14 10:12 AM
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Dear Father Deacon Lance,

You put your finger on something very important in the whole discussion of celibacy/marriage for clergy.

You are absolutely correct (and so very astute) in saying that India's religious tradition and culture respects celibacy - a context that supports and values a celibate Christian priesthood.

In the West, for example, the same context is quite different . . .

It was my experience with a Latin Catholic high school that actually scared me away from the priesthood.

When I once said I was considering the priesthood - that was it, I was forever targeted as an "idiot" and a "homosexual" by the Latin students there. What was worse, the lay counselors at the school actually had me attend some sessions with a school psychologist to find out what was wrong with me that I wanted to be a celibate priest etc.!

The psychologist told me that he was in a seminary but let because of the homosexual tendencies of the seminarians and also how they talked about poverty issues without ever knowing what it was like not to sleep in one's own bed for three weeks and the like (I didn't ask him if he ever had that experience himself).

I felt like a pariah and over time they tried to make me believe I was under my parents' sway too much. They then had me speak to a female counselor who "prepped" me for dating - she even told me, and I'll never forget those words, "Alex, you're no Rock Hudson, but you are all right . . . I think a girl would be interested in speaking with you, going with you to a dance . . .".

(FYI, the female counselor was no movie star either - I think that if Moses would have seen her, there would have been another commandment . . .).

So now I was not only feeling strange for considering the priesthood (I always wanted to be a married priest, but the Latins didn't know anything about that and said it wouldn't happen in North America anyway), but I was also feeling that only very specific girls would want to go out with me. (Today, I have twice as many female friends as male and they actually get upset with me if I stay out of touch with them for too long . . . ).

When they got to my parents, my mom and dad asked me, almost with tears in their eyes, "Alex, do we overly control and dominate you?" I told them I wanted to transfer to a public school, right there and then.

My mother even took the initiative to arrange a date for me with the daughter of a friend of hers, just to show the school . . .

I didn't want to go, I didn't know what I would say to the girl, apart from religion, spirituality and philosophy. (I thought, "Maybe she would go for some devotional literature . . .?").

At the last minute, the girl called to say she had a headache and couldn't make it that night. My mother had made reservations for a very expensive restaurant and the taxi was already waiting to take me to the girl's house . . .

Seeing how nervous I was, I was given some whiskey to "soothe my nerves." But when the girl called to say she couldn't make it, I wiped the sweat from my brow and knelt in thankful prayer right in front of my parents . . .

Today, if things were different for me personally, I'd have no problem being a celibate priest.

Our married priests live very hard lives, many of them do manual labour to make ends meet and I wouldn't wish their experiences on my worst enemy.

There, I got that off my chest. Thank your for listening and understanding!

Alex


Last edited by Orthodox Catholic; 11/20/14 10:14 AM.
Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Irish Melkite] #409505 11/20/14 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The Holy Father, in the audience granted to the Prefect of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, December 23, 2013, approved that request

contrariis quibuslibet minimum ostantibus, (all considerations to the contrary notwithstanding)

according to the following guidelines:

- in the Eastern Administrative Constituencies (Metropolia, Eparchies, Exarchates) constituted outside of the traditional territories, these faculties are conferred on the Eastern Hierarchs, to exercise according to the traditions of their respective Churches. Also, the Ordinary, possessing faculties to ordain married Eastern candidates from a respective region, [has] an obligation to give prior notice, in writing, to the Latin Bishop of the candidate's place of residence, so as to obtain his opinion and any relevant information [regarding the candidate].


Progress. But Greek Catholic bishops still do not have the freedom to ordain married men to the priesthood without the permission of the Latin bishop.

Also, this permission comes not as an undeniable right of Eastern Catholics but as a prerogative of the Holy Father. It can be taken away at any time.

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: MichaelO] #409507 11/20/14 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelO
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The Holy Father, in the audience granted to the Prefect of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, December 23, 2013, approved that request

contrariis quibuslibet minimum ostantibus, (all considerations to the contrary notwithstanding)

according to the following guidelines:

- in the Eastern Administrative Constituencies (Metropolia, Eparchies, Exarchates) constituted outside of the traditional territories, these faculties are conferred on the Eastern Hierarchs, to exercise according to the traditions of their respective Churches. Also, the Ordinary, possessing faculties to ordain married Eastern candidates from a respective region, [has] an obligation to give prior notice, in writing, to the Latin Bishop of the candidate's place of residence, so as to obtain his opinion and any relevant information [regarding the candidate].


Progress. But Greek Catholic bishops still do not have the freedom to ordain married men to the priesthood without the permission of the Latin bishop.

Also, this permission comes not as an undeniable right of Eastern Catholics but as a prerogative of the Holy Father. It can be taken away at any time.
How does this work in a place like Winnepeg where the Byzantine bishop is the personal, territorial and jurisdictional Catholic eparch/bishop?

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #409508 11/20/14 12:32 PM
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griego catolico Offline
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Here is an English translation provided by the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh: link.

Letter from Metropolitan Archbishop William issued to the clergy, religious and faithful of the Archeparchy: link.

Source.

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: MichaelO] #409516 11/20/14 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelO
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The Holy Father, in the audience granted to the Prefect of the Congregation for Eastern Churches, Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, December 23, 2013, approved that request

contrariis quibuslibet minimum ostantibus, (all considerations to the contrary notwithstanding)

according to the following guidelines:

- in the Eastern Administrative Constituencies (Metropolia, Eparchies, Exarchates) constituted outside of the traditional territories, these faculties are conferred on the Eastern Hierarchs, to exercise according to the traditions of their respective Churches. Also, the Ordinary, possessing faculties to ordain married Eastern candidates from a respective region, [has] an obligation to give prior notice, in writing, to the Latin Bishop of the candidate's place of residence, so as to obtain his opinion and any relevant information [regarding the candidate].


Progress. But Greek Catholic bishops still do not have the freedom to ordain married men to the priesthood without the permission of the Latin bishop.

Also, this permission comes not as an undeniable right of Eastern Catholics but as a prerogative of the Holy Father. It can be taken away at any time.

Eastern bishops are to inform the Latin bishops not ask their permission. And I am sure Rome knows this toothpaste is never going back in the tube.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #409566 11/23/14 05:52 AM
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Some Points:

It will be interesting to see how the American Roman Catholic clergy respond to this. There are GC clergy with RC faculties and can this extend the married priesthood here?

In Czechoslovakia, RC married clergy were allowed in the Byzantine Rite in certain cases.

Among the Orthodox, there are discrepencies regarding the diaconate. Since the Orientals were not a part of Trullo, they go by the more ancient cannon regarding the marriage of deacons, which they allow. Some Eastern Orthodox use that as a basis for exemptions, but they are infrequent. The RC deacons are covered under the Trullo praxis and are not allowed to marry after ordination. Yet Vatican II calls for recognizing Orthodox clergy as they are. This will be very interesting.

Finally, if the Cardinal Archbishop of NY wanted to ordain married men for his Russian and Italo-Greek Greek Catholic parishes, could His Eminence Timothy Dolan do it? The previous Archbishop of NY stated an interest in at least studying married clergy and used the Eastern Catholic Churches as reasoning. Interesting. BTW, Our Lady of Kazan in Boston was under the jurisdiction of Umberto Cardinal Medeiros.

Whew! There are a lot of issues to sort out with this. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Just my ... Three Cents.


Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Three Cents] #409777 12/04/14 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Three Cents

Finally, if the Cardinal Archbishop of NY wanted to ordain married men for his Russian and Italo-Greek Greek Catholic parishes, could His Eminence Timothy Dolan do it?

Yes, as their ordinary he has the right to do so.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #409792 12/06/14 09:24 AM
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Please permit me to inject a High Petrine perspective into the discussion.

It is a false notion that it is the Pope of Rome's prerogative to determine this matter, at least not his alone. From the beginning of this controversy in the 19th century, it has never been the Pope of Rome's will alone, nor even primarily, that has determined this matter. The conflict arose because the very great majority of bishops in a certain region opposed a particular discplinary praxis -- "very great majority" because I had read in an article at New Advent a couple of years ago that there was at least one Latin bishop during that early period who allowed married Eastern priests into his diocese [somewhere in the Eastern U.S.]). If the majority of bishops in the region wanted or were OK with married priests, then there would be no problem at all, and the Pope would NOT have the authority to impose celibacy in the region. The role of the Pope of Rome (or any head bishop) is to CONFIRM, not to introduce something novel. However, when there is conflict between bishops, it is a tough reality that not all parties will get their way.

Look at it from the perspective of the ancient Apostolic Canon 34. On a matter that concerns the entire plenary jurisdiction of a head bishop, the approval of the head bishop is a [u]necessity[/i]. BUT NEITHER IS THE MERE AND UNILATERAL WILL OF THE HEAD BISHOP THE SOLE DETERMINANT. Other bishops must be in agreement (in practice, it is the majority), for any act to be ecclesiastically valid.

CAVEAT: remember, this is a matter of discipline, not doctrine. In a matter of discipline, majority rule is the norm. This is not always the case on matters of doctrine. In either case, it is never the will of the head bishop alone that determines the case.

To address the matter of this discipline being taken away in the future, I would only point out that in Catholic canon law, acquired rights are very, very, very difficult to violate or rescind - even by the Pope of Rome. Remember also that this decision reflected the will of some very influential bodies in the Catholic Church (among others, the North American Catholic-Orthodox commission, the Sacred Congregation for the Eastern Churches, etc.). Rest assured, if it could be rescinded, it would only be by a collegial action, not by some mythical, unilateral power of the Pope of Rome. Fr. Dcn Lance put it well - the toothpaste ain't goin' back in the tube on this one.

To address an earlier comment about the right of bishop to ordain married men: It is the natural, divine right of a bishop to ordain men,. However, whether such men can be married or must be celibate is regulated by ecclesiastical law. It is not a natural right to ordain MARRIED men, but it is a natural right to ordain men.

Finally, I'd like to comment on the title of this thread. Having grown up in the Oriental Orthodox communion, and imbued with what I call the High Petrine perspective, a statement such "Pope Francis universally authorizes married priests" to me naturally means that it was a decision of the head bishop (in this case, the Pope of Rome) IN AGREEMENT WITH many other bishops. That's the ONLY way it could have come about. But I imagine that there are those (perhaps many) who would interpret that statement to mean that the Pope of Rome single-handedly did it. I believe the latter perspective is not only false, but it is such perceptions that perpetuate the falsehood of the Absolutist Petrine view, so destructive to Church unity.

Blessings,
Marduk

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: mardukm] #409795 12/06/14 02:03 PM
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Thank you, mardukm, for your response. There is a balance in what you say/provide that is very helpful.

The Absolutist Petrine view, imho, creates many more problems than it 'solves'. I'm sure this point has been labored elswhere in the Forums, but do the canons and Councils of the western Church (those which are germane) establish, without ambiguity, an Absolutist intent. If not, what has emanated in letter or canon from Rome reiterating a non-absolutist understanding of the Petrine primacy so as to quell the ill effects of those who both misunderstand and propagate the Absolutist 'semi-dogma'.

To provide my context, after leaving 35 yrs. of protestantism, I became RC... after nearly 25 years there I converted to/was converted by Orthodoxy and now worship and pray with my brothers in the Greek-Catholic church (Melkite), having also worshiped and prayed with Eastern Orthodox of various jurisdictions in the not too distant past as well. (Please note, this 'context' is to be understood in linear-chronological fashion, not in a 'musical chairs' construct :>) LOL, sorta

Any helpful elucidations to this much overworked (due to its wasp-like insertiveness) topic would be greatly appreciated.

Sinful Ivanov.

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #409797 12/06/14 07:53 PM
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Great news.

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: The young fogey] #409849 12/08/14 03:47 PM
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Great to see you here, YF!

Alex

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Ivanov325] #409908 12/12/14 07:38 PM
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Dear brother Ivanov,

I have provided such information as you asked for in other threads over the years. When I have more time, I will address your concerns by reviving one of the relatively recent threads discussing the High Petrine view of the Catholic Church (I don't think thread is the place to discuss it).

In the meantime, you might want to do a search on the topic "High Petrine" in this website, or in the Catholic Answers website. Hopefully, it will be helpful, perhaps even an eye-opener. I've spent a lot of time detailing the differences between the popular conceptions about the papacy versus the actual teaching of the Catholic Church on the papacy.

Blessings

Originally Posted by Ivanov325
Thank you, mardukm, for your response. There is a balance in what you say/provide that is very helpful.

The Absolutist Petrine view, imho, creates many more problems than it 'solves'. I'm sure this point has been labored elswhere in the Forums, but do the canons and Councils of the western Church (those which are germane) establish, without ambiguity, an Absolutist intent. If not, what has emanated in letter or canon from Rome reiterating a non-absolutist understanding of the Petrine primacy so as to quell the ill effects of those who both misunderstand and propagate the Absolutist 'semi-dogma'.

To provide my context, after leaving 35 yrs. of protestantism, I became RC... after nearly 25 years there I converted to/was converted by Orthodoxy and now worship and pray with my brothers in the Greek-Catholic church (Melkite), having also worshiped and prayed with Eastern Orthodox of various jurisdictions in the not too distant past as well. (Please note, this 'context' is to be understood in linear-chronological fashion, not in a 'musical chairs' construct :>) LOL, sorta

Any helpful elucidations to this much overworked (due to its wasp-like insertiveness) topic would be greatly appreciated.

Sinful Ivanov.

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #410174 01/08/15 10:38 AM
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Eastern-Catholic Married Priesthood Authorized in North America

At Pope Francis’ direction, the Vatican has restored a faculty it suppressed 85 years ago.

by PETER JESSERER SMITH 01/07/2015

WASHINGTON — Eastern Catholic bishops in the U.S. and Canada can once more ordain married men to the priesthood, now that the Vatican has removed decades-long prohibitions that had prevented them from following the traditional practice of their patriarchal churches.

The decree — signed by Cardinal Leonardo Sandri, the prefect of the Congregation for Oriental Churches — was dated June 14, 2014, in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis. It was published online in November and announced that Pope Francis restored the faculty of Eastern-Catholic bishops “outside of the traditional Eastern territories” to admit married men to the priesthood “according to the traditions of their respective Churches.”

According to the decree, Eastern-Catholic bishops all over the world may “ordain the Eastern married candidates who come from their jurisdiction.” It adds they have the “obligation to inform beforehand” the local Latin-rite bishop in writing “in order to have his opinion regarding any useful information.”

The decree adds that ordinaries overseeing Eastern-Catholic ordinariates that lack their own hierarch can ordain married men to the priesthood, “providing they notify the bishops' conference of the specific cases in that area.”

The Congregation for Oriental Churches, however, reserves for itself the decision to ordain a married man in cases where Eastern-Catholic faithful are entrusted to the care of a Latin bishop or a bishops’ conference.

“It’s a very good move for us,” said Bishop Nicholas Samra, the Melkite eparch of Newton, Mass., in welcoming the decision. “We’ve been arguing and discussing this for quite a while.” Bishop Samra was among the more vocal advocates in the U.S. calling for a restoration of the faculties of Eastern-Catholic bishops outside of their patriarchal territories to ordain married men.

The Vatican decision affects the 15 eparchies and two archeparchies of the various Eastern-Catholic Churches in the U.S. and appears to bring the Church’s practice into line with the Second Vatican Council’s teaching that “each individual Church or rite should retain its traditions whole and entire,” adapting to the “different needs of time and place.”

The ability of Eastern-Catholic married clergy to serve in the U.S., Canada and Australia had been suppressed for more than 85 years, since a 1929 Vatican decree called Cum Datum Fuerit.

The 2014 decree signed by Cardinal Sandri related the history of the Eastern-Catholic married priesthood’s suppression, saying it had been granted at the behest of the Latin bishops in North America, who at that time believed Eastern married clergy posed a “grave scandal” to their faithful. The Vatican acknowledged that. in North America, as a result of this treatment, “an estimated 200,000 Ruthenian [Eastern-Catholic] faithful became Orthodox.”



Positive Ecumenical Signals

Pope Francis’ restoration of Eastern bishops’ faculty to ordain married men outside of their patriarchates has sent positive signals to the Orthodox, where the vast majority of diocesan clergy are married men.

“For the Catholics to show that there isn’t anything wrong with the married clergy is a very good thing — that there isn’t a ‘second tier’ or ‘sub-priesthood,’ so to speak, just because one is married,” said Father Nathaniel Symeonides, ‎director of Inter-Orthodox, Ecumenical, Interfaith and Church-World Relations at the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

He said this would help the dialogue move forward and added that the way the Church resolved the issue internally was encouraging.

“It does show an openness, absolutely, for changing a policy without the fear of changing doctrine or the teachings of the Church,” he said.

Paulist Father Ronald Roberson, associate director for the Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said resolving the issue was necessary to assure the Orthodox that the Catholic Church would respect their traditions in the event of a reconciliation between them.

“It would be a problem if, in the final stages of a theological dialogue with the Orthodox — and we were talking about the arrangements that would be made — [we were] to say, ‘Oh, by the way, you can’t have married priests in North America,’” he said.

Father Roberson said the decision is about respecting traditions and not changing celibacy as the norm for priests in the Latin rite.

“It has been clear from the beginning that celibacy is a treasured tradition of the Latin rite, and that is the standard thing, and there can be exceptions,” he said, pointing out that the majority of married priests in the U.S. are Latin rite, such as those serving in the Anglican ordinariates established by Benedict XVI.

“This simply recognizes that the Eastern-Catholic Churches that are in communion with us have a different tradition, and the tradition of married priests and celibate priests live side-by-side with respect for one another.”

Most Eastern-Catholic Churches have a tradition of both a married and celibate priesthood, except the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Churches, which have had priestly celibacy as their norm for quite some time. Traditionally, in the Eastern-Catholic Churches celibate priests would live together as monastics, while married men would serve as diocesan clergy. Only celibate priests may be consecrated bishops.

But in all the Churches of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, once ordained, a priest cannot get married. A married priest must observe celibacy after the death of his wife.



Reviving Eastern Monasticism

In North America, most of the serving Eastern-Catholic diocesan clergy are celibate. Restoring the married priesthood could also help Eastern Churches restore their own tradition of living out celibate priesthood, in the form of monasticism, in North America.

“Monasticism and marriage are interwoven in Eastern spirituality,” said Father Thomas Loya, pastor of Annunciation of the Mother of God Byzantine Catholic Church in the Chicago area and host of Light of the East Radio.

“This [decree] is about returning to an authentic experience of our spirituality,” he said, noting that, traditionally, in the Eastern Churches, most vocations to the celibate priesthood (as well as married priesthood) came from priests’ families.

While this restoration, he said, would help the bishops ordain a “more wholesome, more rounded individual” to the priesthood, many big questions have to now be constructively addressed, including what to do about rectories designed for celibates, not families; how to support financially the priest’s family; and how to allocate parish assignments between celibates and married priests.

Another aspect is forming the priest’s wife for her role in the parish. Father Loya said that while the Latin Church has developed a staff structure to support celibate parish priests in their ministry — from cooks, housekeepers, directors of religious education, etc. — in the Eastern Churches, many of these functions used to be filled by the priest’s wife and his family.

“There’s a lot more to it than this is a priest who happens to be married,” he said, explaining that the attitude cannot be that a priest’s wife is “a career woman who happens to be married to a priest. They’ll be expected to share in that life itself.”



Slow Restoration Begins

Bishop Samra said these questions are now being carefully examined by Eastern-Catholic bishops in North America.

“Each bishop is working on guidelines,” he said.

In his eparchy, he is looking for candidates with theology degrees who demonstrate a pastoral character. But he’s also looking at middle-aged men who have demonstrated they can care for their families.

“We’re looking at probably the age of 40” [for candidates], he said, pointing out that many parishes are not financially equipped to support married priests and their families. Right now, the candidates he’s looking for have to maintain a job to support their families and provide them insurance while the eparchy develops the resources to better support them.

“We’re also trying to do some [theological] programming for the priests’ wives,” he said. “They have to have a major role, and they have to consent.”

Bishop Samra said his own eparchy may see up to 10 more married priests over the next seven years. The increase will not solve his priest shortage, but he expects it will ease the strain. At least eight of his parishes are without a full-time pastor, and he has to staff two outreaches, in Houston and in Allentown, Pa., where Middle-Eastern Christians escaping violence have resettled.

“A lot of these people who are coming are very accustomed with married priests, and they feel comfortable with them. They know he’s experienced the same life as them, with families and children.”

Peter Jesserer Smith is the Register’s Washington correspondent.


Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-new...thorized-in-north-america/#ixzz3OFEce49l

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Irish Melkite] #412274 07/08/15 03:37 PM
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Thanks to the three of you for this invaluable Translation of the announcement by Pope Francis to lift the ban on Eastern married priests in the Diaspora (outside of their traditional territory)!

The Acta Apostolica Sedis Vol CVI No 6 496-499, June 14, 2014
issue published the decree signed by Leonardo Cardinal Sandri, Prefect of the Congregation of the Eastern Churches.

Have published this on our website and given vatican.va and byzcath.org credit.
http://maryourmother.net/Eastern.html

Re: Pope Francis universally authorizes married Eastern priests [Re: Tomassus] #412323 07/15/15 05:58 PM
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Quote
Paulist Father Ronald Roberson, associate director for the Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said resolving the issue was necessary to assure the Orthodox that the Catholic Church would respect their traditions in the event of a reconciliation between them.

“It would be a problem if, in the final stages of a theological dialogue with the Orthodox — and we were talking about the arrangements that would be made — [we were] to say, ‘Oh, by the way, you can’t have married priests in North America,’” he said.

Father Roberson said the decision is about respecting traditions and not changing celibacy as the norm for priests in the Latin rite.


" . . . assure the Orthodox that the Catholic Church would respect their traditions . . ."

Forgive me, but this seems to make the assumption that everyone is becoming another Eastern Catholic Church. Is this man serious? It seems to me he needs a lot of education about what the other Apostolic Churches are all about, how they see themselves, and what they see an eventual reconciliation to be.

"[we were] to say, ‘Oh, by the way, you can’t have married priests in North America,’” he said."

I wonder what his reaction would be if the Orthodox would say "You're coming back into a communion you broke a millenium ago and you have the gall to think you can make any conditions on the Church you want to be reconciled to."

"rite"

This priest is part of the ecumenical area of the USCCB but he hasn't yet received the memo that we speak about "sui juris Churches" and "Sister Churches," not "rites"--as if theology is always Latin and everyone else just has a different way of expressing it.

Boy, have we got a looooong way to go.

Bob

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