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UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war #412545 08/04/15 09:58 AM
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Tomassus Offline OP
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UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war

4 August 2015
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/60719/

The comment of the UAOC press service regarding the decision of the Holy Synod of UOC-KP was made public by the official website of the UAOC Diocese of Lviv.

"The dirty media war and thirst of precedence of the UOC-KP, which now overflow the information space of Ukraine, only confirms the distortion of historical facts and rewriting of history to please some individuals," goes the UAOC statement.

UAOC makes excursion into the history and emphasizes that “overall, the so-called Ukrainian Council signed no single document in 1992, when there was a raider seizure of the UAOC purely as a religious organization, with all its property through illegal amendments to the UAOC Statute, against which Patriarch Mstislav (Skrypnyck) spoke out.”

The UAOC called "blasphemous» the claim that the UOC-KP "is the only real historical and legal successor of both Churches” (UOC and UAOC).

"Such actions of Patriarch Filaret not only put an end to the “dialogue on unification with the UAOC ,” but pushes both parties to this process of longed-for unification of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine back into the maelstrom of mutual grievances, total distrust and duplicity that is unworthy of either religious persons, or Christians in general,” goes the UAOC statement.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Tomassus] #412555 08/05/15 08:13 AM
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DMD Offline
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Next headline: "Ukrainian Baptists celebrate over Orthodox infighting." Somehow I suspect at the day of final judgment we will account for how faithful to the gospel we were as Christians, not how loyal we were to a culture or nationality or a myth of cultural hegemony. (There, I think I covered all bases with that....)

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: DMD] #412560 08/05/15 11:02 AM
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Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by DMD
Next headline: "Ukrainian Baptists celebrate over Orthodox infighting."

They should read 1 Corinthians 13:6, "Love does not rejoice in evil."

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Tomassus] #412562 08/05/15 12:57 PM
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There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Utroque] #412565 08/05/15 02:52 PM
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There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I couldn't agree more. It is for this reason that I became Catholic and have remained Catholic.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Utroque] #412567 08/05/15 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Utroque
There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #412569 08/05/15 07:32 PM
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Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales
Originally Posted by Utroque
There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.

I myself recently praised Catholics (not that I'm biased or anything :halo:) vis a vis the fact that there is already one Ukrainian Catholic Church, whereas one Ukrainian Orthodox Church is just an idea under consideration. But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #412570 08/05/15 10:36 PM
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Actually, infighting is something very human and happens everywhere.

The Papacy, one may legitimately argue, needs this or that reform and certainly the popes of today are not the popes of the 16th-19th centuries.

But the Petrine Primacy is something of a unifying factor of a nature that I, personally, don't see in world Orthodoxy.

The Petrine Primacy of Elder Rome was normative for the once united Church of East and West and the East, if we read the Sixth Ecumenical Council's proceedings as one example, was actually very enthusiastic about defending and proclaiming Rome's primacy.

The issues of how much power the pope has/ought to have etc. are ones that can be ironed out in future.

The fact remains that the Roman Primacy is ultimately God's Will for his Orthodox Catholic Church.

Alex

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Tomassus] #412571 08/05/15 11:40 PM
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Does this meanthat the sins of the Borgia pope and some other winners in the 16-17th centuries is somehow forgotten!

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #412572 08/06/15 09:22 AM
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What the nature of the primacy has been and will be in the future, remains the primary issue of our earthly division. And unless and until Rome figures out a way in which to escape the trap it set for itself - over the fierce objections of the Melkite Patriarch and a large segment of the Roman Church, in Vatican One - unity shall remain elusive. The Orthodox can never accept a we will figure it out along the way approach. Been there, done that..at least for many of us from a historical if not personal perspective.

But I agree the fear within Orthodoxy of any sort of real way to deal with the chronic infighting is a problem.

Personally, I think that each of us has to reconcile these issues as best they can locally as little trust in the ability of huge institutions to change is well advised - be it in the world of business, politics, governments or religion. Lord, have mercy on us all.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Tomassus] #412575 08/06/15 12:05 PM
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But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.


I was not trying come off as triumphalist in my post, but the unity provided for by the Petrine Primacy is important and could solve many of the jurisdictional problems facing the Orthodox Church.

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The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.


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Actually, infighting is something very human and happens everywhere.


Exactly, just because there still has been splits within Catholicism, even with the Petrine Primacy, doesn't mean that doctrine on the primacy is somehow defective. In fact, many people dissent because they disagree with the Churches teaching. That is a free choice by the individual or group of people but that does not effect the legitimate teachings of the Church on a particular issue.


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But the Petrine Primacy is something of a unifying factor of a nature that I, personally, don't see in world Orthodoxy.


St. John Paul says in Ut Unum Sint that the Bishop of Rome is "the first servant of unity." He also says in the same letter:

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With the power and the authority without which such an office would be illusory, the Bishop of Rome must ensure the communion of all the Churches.


Within Orthodoxy there is no power or authority that can ensure the communion of all the Orthodox Churches. Sadly, one only has to look at the recent breach between Antioch and Jerusalem and the attempts by the Ecumenical Patriarch to exercise primacy, to see this.

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The issues of how much power the pope has/ought to have etc. are ones that can be ironed out in future.

The fact remains that the Roman Primacy is ultimately God's Will for his Orthodox Catholic Church.


Amen.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 08/06/15 12:09 PM.
Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Nelson Chase] #412576 08/06/15 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase

Exactly, just because there still has been splits within Catholicism, even with the Petrine Primacy, doesn't mean that doctrine on the primacy is somehow defective. In fact, many people dissent because they disagree with the Churches teaching. That is a free choice by the individual or group of people but that does not effect the legitimate teachings of the Church on a particular issue.



You state that the Petrine primacy is some bulwark against schism (specifically, you said "cure"), and then admit that the Catholic church continues to experience schism. So much for that...

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With the power and the authority without which such an office would be illusory, the Bishop of Rome must ensure the communion of all the Churches.


Since the Orthodox Churches are considered "true particular churches" and Rome is not communion with them, clearly the Papal supremacy does nothing more to guarantee unity than any other church polity.

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Within Orthodoxy there is no power or authority that can ensure the communion of all the Orthodox Churches.


Apart from Christ himself, no such power can be found anywhere, including in the Catholic church.

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Sadly, one only has to look at the recent breach between Antioch and Jerusalem and the attempts by the Ecumenical Patriarch to exercise primacy, to see this.


And one can look back to the Meletian schism to see that similar issues were not avoided when East and West were still united.

Last edited by SwanOfEndlessTales; 08/06/15 01:06 PM.
Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #412577 08/06/15 02:33 PM
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The devil is in the details. The 'Petrine primacy' is viewed by the Orthodox Church as a code term for the modern institutional Papacy with its eccesiology of universal particular jurisdiction and supremacy - not the eccesiology which existed through the era of the seven ecumenical councils.

Sorry, but we Orthodox are not buying that and I suspect many Eastern Catholics don't really buy it either.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: DMD] #412585 08/07/15 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
The devil is in the details. The 'Petrine primacy' is viewed by the Orthodox Church as a code term for the modern institutional Papacy with its eccesiology of universal particular jurisdiction and supremacy - not the eccesiology which existed through the era of the seven ecumenical councils.

Sorry, but we Orthodox are not buying that and I suspect many Eastern Catholics don't really buy it either.


Rome needs to clearly state what hat it's wearing, when it comes to making claims of this, or that. It clearly wears more than one hat; and that's what can drive confusion.

Orthodoxy had the opportunity to break out of its self-preservation shell; and start investigating the relevancy of certain canons, with respect to the time(s) they've found themselves in. Granted, such a process may take longer than many want. We'll hope and see what the Council of 2016 will bring, God willing. But there could have been a careful working out of primacy, given new patriarchates have been erected since the initial pecking orders were established.

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war [Re: Peter J] #412658 08/14/15 01:59 AM
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I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism. [/quote]
I myself recently praised Catholics (not that I'm biased or anything :halo:) vis a vis the fact that there is already one Ukrainian Catholic Church, whereas one Ukrainian Orthodox Church is just an idea under consideration. But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.[/quote]
Is there 1 Ukrainian Catholic Church? Is there not the RC, UGCC, and the Ruthenians?

Last edited by orthodoxsinner2; 08/14/15 02:02 AM.
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