The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
son of the desert, chchannel, OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog
5656 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 157 guests, and 167 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,877
Posts412,856
Members5,656
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome #412860 09/04/15 05:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
T
Tomassus Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
T
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 643
[b][Ecumenical Patriarch rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome]

Catholic World News - September 04, 2015
https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=26037

Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople underlined the importance of ecumenical ties with Rome, and criticized the resistance of the Russian Orthodox Church, in an August 29 address. The Ecumenical Patriarch—recognized as the “first among equals” of the world’s Orthodox leaders—stressed the primary importance of ecumenical affairs, and reiterated that his role involves “protecting the unity of the whole Orthodox Church.” He said that opposition to ecumenical unity reflects a “diabolical” impulse. Patriarch Bartholomew said that his continuing contacts with the Holy See are a critical component of his ecumenical work. He expressed his enthusiasm for the planned worldwide Orthodox council, but conceded that it cannot accurately be described as an ecumenical council “because Western Christians are not invited to participate as members.” The Ecumenical Patriarch—who has frequently sparred in recent years with the leaders of the Patriarchate of Moscow—clearly appeared to be criticizing the Russian Orthodox leadership when he spoke critically about Orthodox bodies that “maintain intimate connections with the government of their land and enjoy abundant financial support,” and advance the political interests of their nations.

Source: Keynote Address By His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew to the Synaxis of Hierarchs of the Throne http://www.ec-patr.org/docdisplay.php?lang=en&id=2078&tla=en

Last edited by Tomassus; 09/05/15 10:39 AM.
Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Tomassus] #412864 09/05/15 01:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
M
Mark R Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
I see no rebuke or mention of Moscow other than Tomassus's own parenthetical remark. I'll take text over subtext in serious items like this. It would be unwise to attribute expressions to the EP which have not been articulated by it.

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Mark R] #412871 09/05/15 10:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Nelson Chase Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
From the Ecumenical Patriarch recent address to the EP Synaxis:

Quote
Finally, it would be an omission not to underline to this sacred body the difficulties encountered in the overall enterprise of convening the Holy and Great Council. The most serious of these problems arise from the fact that many of the local Orthodox Churches have regrettably been pervaded by a spirit of nationalism and even, sometimes, by the very heresy condemned as ethnophyletism, which converts the Church into a servant of political ambitions of the state. Thus, some of our sister Orthodox Churches, which maintain intimate connections with the government of their land and enjoy abundant financial support, strive through every means – including the planned Holy and Great Council – to promote interests and strategies of a political nature, thereby creating fractures within Orthodox unity.


While not mentioning the Moscow Patriarchate by name (or other Orthodox Churches) it is clear that the Russian Church and State are, at times, intimately connected. It also seems clear that there seems to be two, for lack of better words, factions within Orthodoxy. The Greek Churches and then the Slavic Churches. The latter looks more to Moscow, while the former looks to the Ecumenical Patriarch.

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Tomassus] #412873 09/06/15 12:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
KO63AP Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,177
Mark R,

It's 'diplomatic speech'. It would be unseemly for the EP to bluntly state "Moscow, you've been naughty."

Reminds me of...
If a diplomat says 'Yes', he means 'Maybe';
if he says 'Maybe', he means 'No';
if he says 'No', he is not a diplomat!


Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Tomassus] #412879 09/06/15 06:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
U
Utroque Offline
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
While it is certainly not His Beatitude’s intention, I think the speech is a terrible indictment of world Orthodoxy. The inability to call the world Orthodox Churches together in synod for such a long period of time and counting, is not just scandalous, but dumbfounding and bespeaks the failure of the whole system of Autocephaly as a viable ecclesiology for a world Church.

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Tomassus] #412884 09/07/15 12:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
Lester S Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 426
I don't know about that, Utroque. It goes back to the question of: is this a church dividing issue, the situation with Jerusalem/Antioch not withstanding.

It's a travesty, yes. But I don't think the whole system is a failure; it's called uncovering the roadblock, which was the stymie of Churches due to oppression, something the Latin Church on the whole hasn't had to endure in recent years.

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Tomassus] #412886 09/07/15 09:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
M
mardukm Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,132
I don't think it is a failure at all. The EP indicates that they have not called an Ecumenical Council because they recognize the West should be involved. That shows a humble respect for Tradition. I see that as a BIG positive, instead of a negative.

Blessings

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: mardukm] #412888 09/07/15 10:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
U
Utroque Offline
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
Originally Posted by mardukm
I don't think it is a failure at all. The EP indicates that they have not called an Ecumenical Council because they recognize the West should be involved. That shows a humble respect for Tradition. I see that as a BIG positive, instead of a negative.

Blessings


Autocephaly has not been a success either, and seems to have contributed to the very nationalism that the His Beatitude abhors. It certainly was not the ecclesiological model of the first millennium, and if that epoch is going to be a starting point for an honest dialogue between East and West, the Orthodox will need to acknowledge its deficiencies; while the West certainly needs to acknowledge the deficiencies of its own highly centralized system. On the whole, I did find the speech positive and, while highly stylized in EP “speak”, inspiring.

Blessings to you, too!

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: Utroque] #412889 09/07/15 10:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
S
SwanOfEndlessTales Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 231
Originally Posted by Utroque


Autocephaly has not been a success either, and seems to have contributed to the very nationalism that the His Beatitude abhors. It certainly was not the ecclesiological model of the first millennium


It certainly was. Papal supremacy meanwhile is an innovation.

The Orthodox Church maintains the apostolic faith and brings souls to Christ. If that's not a measure of "success," what is?

Re: EP rebukes Moscow and underlines importance of ties with Rome [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #412892 09/07/15 11:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
U
Utroque Offline
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 618
Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales


It certainly was. Papal supremacy meanwhile is an innovation.

The Orthodox Church maintains the apostolic faith and brings souls to Christ. If that's not a measure of "success," what is?


That said, there certainly is no need for dialogue, is there? As the wonderful American poet, William Stafford wrote in his poem "Religion Back Home", Our Father Who art in Heaven can lick their Father Who art in Heaven!

The primacy of the Bishop of Rome is no innovation. Its extreme manifestations throughout history are just as abhorrent as any ecclesiastical abuse, east, west, north or south, and are best acknowledged, dealt with, forgiven and forgotten. Despite her sins the Catholic Church continues to hold the apostolic faith and bring souls to Christ, too. If numbers are any measure of success, she, as the EP acknowledges in his speech, has been quite successful.


Moderated by  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3