www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Message from Orthodox Syria

So how has the intensification of hostilities by Mr. Putin a relief for these Christians and other people who have been in the middle of this war for so many years?

Alex

It is sad when long time forum friendships are destroyed by political differences of opinion.

The airstrikes have evidently taken some pressure off of the Syrian government and allowed for some territory to be taken back. So evidently they have brought some relief. How lasting, time will tell.

I apologise, Alice, if I have done that. I'm simply raising a question.

This is how my friends and I discuss things over coffee! It really is the European way.

Swan has answered my question, which was not intended to be rhetorical.

Time will tell and I certainly agree with that assessment.

I let off some steam on the other thread only because I was giving a knee-jerk reaction to your comment that I'm just indiscriminately anti-Russian.

Yes, I did report that and yes, the Administrator responded by saying he sympathizes with you on that score because, from his POV, Ukrainians (along with about a couple of dozen other former imperial subjects of the Russian empire) do have a knee-jerk reaction to what Russia does.

The fact that there is no longer a "USSR" does not mean that it has gone away. We see that it hasn't and the leader of the Russian Federation is on record as bemoaning the dismemberment of the USSR. Also, that he considers the body of Lenin to be venerable and, may God forgive me for repeating this, is on an even level with the holy relics of the Venerable Saints of the Kyiv Caves Lavra . . .

Perhaps people like me are very skeptical about the end of the USSR - we believe it has just undergone a metamorphosis with the ROC continuing to do now what it always did (beginning with Patriarch Sergius) under the communists.

Also, the imperial situation there involving Russia didn't begin with the USSR - it began much earlier. This was the source of my disagreement with the Administrator. Just as he considered my being Ukrainian an issue with being objective about Russia/USSR, so too I consider him being an American an issue with being objective about Russian history.

That I over-reacted was part and parcel of the whole situation. We all have our biases - as a sociologist, I know that it is impossible for us not to have them. The Administrator is biased, you are and I am.

We try not to step on one another's toes, but that enterprise inevitably fails now and then.

Do I have strong feelings about certain issues? Yes, I do as I know you do as well. As Swan has said, time will tell who is right and who is wrong in Syria right now and I'm content to leave it at that while giving my view of the matter.

I apologise for being overly emotional and I have been like that over the course of a few years here because I do care about certain things which are even personal for me.

But I would chuck it all in right now if my caustic style here upsets you. I apologise for doing that and it is best that I just shut up on certain matters!

Alex

But this shouldn't be used to conclude that Putin is doing anything more than serving his own interests. Again, time will tell.

Alex

Of course Putin's policy is self-serving. I don't think anyone here seriously denies that. Similarly, I think it's safe to bet that Assad's protection of Christians and religious minorities is dictated by political necessity rather than some ideal of tolerance.

I think it's clear though that Russia will be there for the long haul, owing to its serious strategic interests in Syria.

Swan, you are the Wan!!

(How did you become so knowledgeable on foreign policy and affairs?)

I bow to you sir!

Alex

I hope so. May God protect the Christians through the actions of Russia.

May Putin also stop killing Orthodox Christians in Ukraine and work toward ending that conflict as well . . .

Give it a rest Alex. Sheesh! Alice is correct....you just can't help yourself. For every anti-Putin propaganda story relating to Ukraine....you can find an anti-Ukrainian story.

Let us pray that all the killing stops!!!

I just thank God that Russia is giving some relief to the genocide of Christians in Syria and Iraq. If you can't appreciate that without spouting your usual venom toward Putin.....then maybe you should keep your fingers off the keyboard for a while.

And if you can't appreciate that a forum with a bunch of Ukrainian and Rusyn Catholics isn't going to appreciate pro-Putin pandering maybe you should do the same.

Maybe the bigger problem is our own perceived weakness. Granted, we are not weak. Our current policies and avoidance of any significant engagements in the Middle East give Putin the belief that we are weak. No surprise then that he exploits it for his own gain.

No. We are not perceived as weak. We are perceived as meddlers who make everything worse, which, surprise, we are and have been for quite a while. It is precisely by throwing our weight around, in places where we shouldn't, that created the present situation in Iraq and Syria. And, again, only a serious case of historical amnesia could pin this simply on the current administration. It's one thing to be ignorant of things that happened before you were born, it's another to forget stuff you lived through in the past 15 years. The solution is not deeper American intervention. The decline of the American superpower will be better for everyone in the long run.

I guess both Recluse as well as myself will be keeping our fingers to ourselves for a while . . .

Alex

Dear Recluse,

Actually, I shared your post with about a dozen friends and acquaintances today.

They told me they will pray to receive the same amount of venom in that same vein as I so obviously have!

Hissssssss . . . ..

Alex

Both. Militarily, we are not weak, but our leadership is weak and lives in a dream world not hindered by reality. The meddling part is true in that we do not have well-thought-out plans and solutions that carry through from one administration to another over time. When we do intervene, it usually is wrong time, wrong place, and with consequences that should have been predictable.


Once again, more emotion than reason or logic. America has been, and could continue to be a force for good in the world. It isn't perfect, but many others are worse. I have noticed that thread of anti-Americanism cropping up in comments from time to time. Are you Canadian? Even Alex isn't that hostile toward us. LOL.

Hiss on, Alex. Just don't get hissed off.

Dear Charles,

I'm not hostile toward the Grand Republic to the South at all! I'm only venomous toward Putin . . . hissss . . . .

As for your foreign policy ventures, am only repeating what I've heard Americans in the know - and Donald Trump - are saying on CNN!

What can we up here help it if you guys keep sending us such political commentary!

You have to admit that Putin has made you guys look rather, shall we say, confused

But that's only if Wolf Blitzer and Chris Cuomo are to be believed.

Alex

Y'all can pray to receive (and disperse) as much venom as you wish. I could share your posts, and most definitely get a response which is contrary to that of your friends. But I will not do that....and I will not battle you tit for tat on this forum.

Alice offered a post which began a very timely subject....and once again.....you turned it into an anti-Putin thread. You have stated how it is impossible for us to eradicate our biases.....and you are very good at projecting yours.

The confusion is real, I am afraid. Perhaps the next election will help, but who knows?

Dear Charles,

Did you see the Democratic presidential debate last night? What did you think?

I was rather impressed with the focus on issues (unlike the Republican debate) and also with Bernie Sanders . . .

Alex

Dear Recluse,

OK, your point is taken.

I've gone off the rails, I admit it, OK?

I apologise to you and have started a prayer thread for the president of the Russian Federation.

I will shut up now.

Alex

I didn't see it - a downside of working in music for the Latins. They keep me busy. When the field of candidates is whittled down, I will watch those later debates. Those tend to have more substance.

Good point Sir Charles!

But the Democrats really outclassed the Republicans with their focus on the issues - it was a couple of hours of sheer political enjoyment, agree or disagree with them.

May St Cecilia the patron of music continue to bless your harmonious endeavours!

(How are the Latins doing these days? Still striking discordant notes? ).

Alex

I think there are too many Republican candidates at this point. They seem to be like little kids trying to get noticed. Maybe later, they will have some concrete proposals.

Thanks for the St. Cecilia prayer.

The Latins are fine. I work for a very conservative Latin parish that tolerates no liturgical nonsense. The music is chant, polyphony, good quality anthems, and classic organ literature played on a pipe organ installed in 1953 that just had a console rebuild a couple of months ago. We take liturgy and music quite seriously. Here is a link if you are interested. Take a look in the photo section listed on the right hand side.

Holy Ghost [holyghostknoxville.org]

Thank you my friend. And as always, I keep Ukraine and Her people in my prayers. I feel close to Ukraine. (I know a Ukrainian Orthodox priest and his family who are very near and dear to my heart).

You were impressed with the self avowed socialist, Bernie?

Which issues impressed you? Is it the democratic party's dedication to gay "marriage" and all LGBTQ issues? Is it the democratic party's support of euthanasia? Is it the democratic party's full fledged affirmation of abortion on demand? Perhaps it is the democratic party's loyal dedication to Planned Parenthood and their butchering of babies for the sale of tissue and organs?

I like Bernie, but then again I liked him before the debate too. I will vote for him this primary.

I don't like Bernie, but then again I didn't like him before the debate. I will not vote for him this primary. But of course I could never vote for any progressive liberal socialist democrat.....my conscience wouldn't allow it.

My dear Reclusive Brother!

No, I'm not impressed with any of those points of the Democratic party platform!

I was impressed with his debating style and delivery of his thoughts. As you know, I've worked in politics for more than a quarter of a century (and will be going back). I've spent a lot of time studying speaking styles, writing speeches and advising politicians on delivery of their message and the like.

I'm naturally interested, therefore, in how politicians behave during such debates. Bernie was quite amazing from that perspective. Your Republican folks couldn't hold a candle to him in that respect.

Just because I admire Bernie in this way does NOT mean that I am in agreement with his party or with democratic socialism or socialism and communism of any sort.

Alex

And my conscience will not allow me to vote for any candidate endorsing capitalism, the continual grinding of the poor, the withholding of healthcare from all who need it, the preservation of white supremacy, etc.

Having no idea what ground poor would be like, I turned to wine reviews [phrasegenerator.com] the Wine Review Generator for some clues.

"...brings us gritty onion overtones with a oaty nacho finish"

"An indigestible shrimp flavor and orgiastic sushi elements are brought together..."

"A sadistic horseradish aftertaste and old-school urine flavors are intertwined..."

"A conventional pheremone essence and German turpentine flavors..."

"... mixes near-demonic squid undertones with a crude spelt aroma."

I think Jonathan Swift already covered this subject in A Modest Proposal. Now have some chocolate and relax.

Thank God!

Um..........huh?

As Margaret Thatcher said, "“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

Ain't it the truth. Capitalism has allowed more people to escape poverty than any other system by providing opportunity to those who will take it and use it. Socialism, especially in its most extreme form of communism, has impoverished people everywhere it has held power. Only the gangsters at the top of the party benefitted.

Unfortunately, Pat Buchanan's understanding of the situation of Ukraine and the other former satellites of the Soviet Union is one that is based on Western ignorance.

Did the U.S. force NATO into those countries? Did those countries want to remain enslaved in the Soviet Union? Not at all. They wanted out and as the Soviet Union collapsed from within, they grabbed at the chance for independence.

Mr. Putin, Buchanan omits to say, wanted the Soviet Union to persist. He decried its dismemberment as the worst tragedy of the 20th century.

The elected pro-Russian president of Ukraine was brought into power precisely because he promised up and down that he would bring Ukraine into the EU. That is a fact.

Yanukovych was a murderer serving a life sentence when he was freed by order of the communist party which he served all his life.

As president, he lived as a despot, robbing the people and living better than any Tsar had ever lived. The uprising that led to his downfall came from the villages and towns in the first instance, including all the members of my extended family, many of whom lost their jobs as "national undesirables" because they travelled to Kyiv to protest against Yanukovych in the teeth of inclement weather.

Pat Buchanan appears to represent a type of "self-hating American." He is angered by the lack of leadership in Washington for the past twenty years or so. He is somewhat jealous of Russia that it has such a strong leader in the person of Vladimir Putin.

But his understanding of the plight of the enslaved peoples of the former USSR is that of a typical frustrated Western conservative.

Alex

Yes indeed! But, Recluse, how is it that you are so anti-communist/anti-socialist (thank God!), and, at the same time, you are in favour of Putin? I'm asking not telling.

The same Putin who said that the dismemberment of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century and who also likened the body of Lenin to the relics of the Kyivan Caves Lavra?

How does that work?

Alex

Capitalism worked for a while in America because of Protestant and English self-restraint. Both of those are gone.
I like Chesterton's sentiment that if capitalism is so great, why are there so few of them.
Though I considered myself Evelyn Waugh on the outside and George Orwell on the inside, I concede that capitalism has done more for the common good than any economic system that has feasibly been attempted. Distributism sounds nice, but it has never been a real system. Aspects of it, however, have thrived before capitalism got too global. One time a lot of people were small business owners and small farmers.
Sanders is the opposite end of the dissatisfaction spectrum from Trump. Socialism and anti-immigration are bad for America. They are products of static, European societies and their emergence demonstrate that America has become very static and income-segregated. European countries needed some kind of socialism to shake up their once rigid class systems. The US did not.

A question for our Canadian readers, of which I know there is at least one: Is gerrymandering the basis for allotting constituencies in Canada, or is there some other way? I think that is the main cause for bringing nutcases to the fore in our federal elections...or is this irrelevant in Canada because of proportional representation.

I know...totally unrelated to Eastern Christianity.

Dear Charles,

You hit the nail on the head (as per your usual).

The communism of the USSR was a form of gangster capitalism, its worst form.

There is a view that gangster capitalism persists in today's successor state to the USSR . . .

Alex

Yes, this is relevant in Canada and it brings, shall we say, insufficient candidates to the fore during election campaigns(like the present one we are in).

And the leader of the Liberal party whose only real claim to fame is that he survived childbirth . . .

This IS relevant to Eastern Christianity as it involves spiritual and moral values.

And the Liberal party has decreed that anyone who is against abortion etc. cannot run as a candidate for it - while the leader is an avowed Catholic.

This is all highly relevant as a result.

Alex

Contrary to what others on this forum may say.....I believe Buchanan is spot on!!!

Thank you Alice.

I am somewhat jealous also. The weak leadership in America is very frustrating.

Because I don't have your bias. Thus far, I am seeing a Putin who stands against issues of moral decay such as: gay "marriage", homosexual progaganda, and abortion. He is also trying to prevent the further genocide of Christians in Syria. Orthodox Churches are being built in Russia at a brisk pace.

I also believe that the EU is the worst thing that could happen to a nation. Now you may say that I have my own bias...and that is true. And you may say that Putin uses moral and Christian precepts to mask another agenda.....and I do not know....because I do not read hearts. You say that he regretted the dismantling on the Soviet Union and venerates Lenin. I did not see those statements, and I do not know when he said them, and I do not know the context in which he said them. Does he still feel that way? I do not know. I do not read hearts. Christ can change hearts in the blink of an eye.

And here you are again....spouting the same venom right after you asked prayers for him. I thought you were going to give it a bit of a rest?

By the way....is Canada not considered to be a socialist?

You don't need to read hearts, just the news. The "moral" stances taken by the Russian government are a sham, as Sergei Chapnin (editor of the MP's Church Gazette) points out in this excellent article. [firstthings.com]:



He called the collapse of the Soviet Union a great geopolitical tragedy in a public address; that said, his thoughts are a lot more nuanced than Western media lets on. Obviously Marxist ideology has no interest to him, though he is also not a knee-jerk anti-socialist.

I agree with you that Alex's reflexive anti-Putin stance is silly, but we should also not be so gullible when Putin (or any politician) makes noises about restoring Christian morality.

The news? That's pretty funny. Who is being naïve now? We cannot judge the hearts of men. There is only one who judges hearts.

For every "excellent article" you post....there is an "excellent article" which sets forth the opposing view.


I have not read this quote in context. Does it mean he supports the re-establishment of the Soviet Union? In September 2014, he accused the Bolsheviks of treachery.


I will agree that politicians are strange creatures.

You support socialism. Is that gullible? Should I judge you harshly for that? No. I do not read hearts.

But I will support someone who speaks for Christian morality and takes action (Putin).... rather than someone who aggressively opposes Christian morality and takes action against it (Obama).

I can tell you one thing. The Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in Syria are very grateful to Putin at this moment.

Again, I'm not talking about judging hearts. Look at the actual fruits of Putin's policies. For instance, you praise his stance against abortion. Have you looked at the recent abortion statistics in Russia?


If that's true, then I'll wait for you to find another article from another MP insider (like Chapnin is) that addresses any of Chapnin's points.


Neither have most people who were sharing the quote as some evidence of his desire to resurrect the Soviet Union.

Yes. And I don't blame Putin for it. Russia was under the communist yoke for a vey long time.....a communism which forced demonic ideology such as atheism and abortion upon the people. This will take a long time to reverse. Thank God that Putin often reveals his pro life stance.


It is a subjective article from a Russian journalist. I've seen articles which refute some of his accusations and offer a counter emotional response. But I promised myself, (and brother Alex), that I was not going to go tit for tat. It only inflames the passions.

By L. Todd Wood - - Monday, September 28, 2015

TASS, the Russian state news service reported today on Vladimir Putin’s comments to Charlie Rose in an interview held in the United States prior to Mr. Putin’s speech to the United Nations. Mr. Putin couched his comments in the vein of personal hardship rather than the dream of a new Russian empire.

Upon being asked by Mr. Rose about Russian expansionism, he replied, “Your questions make me happy. Somebody is always suspecting Russia of having some ambitions, there are always those who are trying to misinterpret us or keep something back. I did say that I see the collapse of the Soviet Union as a great tragedy of the 20th century. Do you know why?

“First of all, because 25 million of Russian people suddenly turned out to be outside the borders of the Russian Federation. They used to live in one state; the Soviet Union has traditionally been called Russia, the Soviet Russia, and it was the great Russia. They used to live in one country and suddenly found themselves abroad. Can you imagine how many problems came out?” Mr. Putin said.

“First, there were everyday issues, the separation of families, the economic and social problems. The list is endless. Do you think it is normal that 25 million people, Russian people, suddenly found themselves abroad? The Russians have turned out to be the largest divided nation in the world nowadays. Is that not a problem? It is not a problem for you as it is for me,” he commented on PBS.

Mr. Putin’s comments come as Russia is landing a large expeditionary force in Syria and building multiple military facilities near Latakia, conceivably to protect their naval base at Tartus, Syria, and to support their longtime ally Bashar Assad of Syria in his civil war. Russia has also stated its intention to fight the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria in the area and has signed a coordination agreement with Iran, Iraq and Syria to that end.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/28/l-todd-wood-putin-breakup-ussr-great-tragedy-russi/

Aha! Thank you dear Alice....finally some context.

If I might add....I have some very dear friends who are Syrian Christians. They have been in America for ten years but most of their family still lives in Syria. It is interesting to hear their perspective. The people in Syria see the U.S president and his administration as incompetent at best.....intentionally apathetic at worst. The weapons and ammunition and vehicles that were given to the so-called "freedom fighters" ended up in the hands of ISIS. They feel as if this administration does not care whether they live or die.....in fact....many feel as if America is aiding and abetting ISIS.

On the other hand, they see Russia as the great hope of their survival....and Putin as a hero.

Go figure.

Hello folks!

I withdraw my earlier post here and apologise to Recluse and Alice for what I said.

Perhaps we really shouldn't be talking about issues that cause such emotional reactions in . . . some of us.

Time will tell what all this will lead to.

I will join Reclusion in reclusion and perhaps I might even bump into him somewhere there . . .

I've proven, time and again, that I'm not worthy to be a participant on this forum.

I apologise to the Administrator for all of this and thank him for his wise counsel - much of which I regrettably have chosen to ignore.

God bless you all!

Alex

Did somebody say they loved Putin? You are putting words in people's mouths.


How do you know that no one else on this forum is not familiar with "politicians of all stripes."



There is no doubt about that.



Some things I believe and others things are up for discussion.


Absolutely.


I have never seen a statement from him which claims that he wants to re-form the Soviet Union. He did say that millions suffered tragically due to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


Wow! That's quite an accusation!



Careful with that beam in your eye, Alex.


Wow! You are really gifted at putting words in people's mouths!



So Canada is not socialist? I asked the question because I do not know about Canada's political situation. I have only been to Vancouver....and it was years ago. There is no need to get so defensive.


There will come a time, God willing, through the prayers of our holy fathers, if I am alive on this Earth, when I will repent of many things.....many times. I am a wretched sinner.

If Putin turns out to be the monster that you depict him to be....if his statements against abortion and gay "marriage" and homosexual propaganda, and euthanasia, and other moral precepts turns out to be bold faced lies.....if his support for the Holy Orthodox Church turns out to be nothing but a grand façade....if his defense of the Christians in Syria is a fantasy......then I will be the first to admit that I was deceived.....and I will repent of any support I have ever shown to him.

Furthermore, I am deeply sorrow that you have become so afflicted by this conversation.

Please forgive me.

R

The problem with many of those nationalities in the Soviet Union was they were part of that country against their will. They were invaded, annexed, or otherwise taken over by Russia. The people were never Russian and wanted their independence back.

As I was driving somewhere this morning, I was enlightened to remember something Saint John Paul II coined in his quest for spiritual engagement and rapprochement with the many Orthodox who get passionate in anger and suspicion about the alleged or actual slights and suffering caused by historical actions of the Catholic church and/or Popes towards them:

"Purification of memory". It is a good thing for all to practice.

Amen.

Well boo boo Mr. Putin. If Russia hadn't invaded the Baltics and other states and promoted Russian immigration there, we wouldn't have this problem. So now he sees himself as the protector of these Russians outside Russia with the right to intervene and annex territory if necessary. But he would certainly not tolerate this same attitude directed towards Russia from the various countries that have large minorities in Russia.

Boo boo?

Crimea was Russian territory at one time, was it not? The people there wanted to be part of Russia again, did they not? Well, I suppose that debate could go on for a long time depending on your particular bias.

But thank God he is the only one with courage enough to be the protector of the Christians in Syria.

Stupid spell correct. That was supposed to be boo hoo. Yes, Crimea was Russian territory. And Kaliningrad was Polish and German territory and the Poles and Germans would like to be part of Poland and Germany again but I don't think Putin would react kindly to an invasion and annexation because his rhetoric only runs one way. And while I am glad Syrian Christians are benefiting from Russia intervention they are simply his excuse to get a foothold in the Middle East.

This is your opinion....and your bias. I don't agree.

I am not in the camp of "Let's demonize Putin for everything."

But of course, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I agree. US involvement (including aiding terrorists) in the region has destabilized it. The chaos and destruction that has ensued is nothing short of pure madness...whichever adjective one might prefer. In my opinion, I think it may be a good thing that the Wolfowitz doctrine (that is behind our disastrous foreign policy decisions) is being challenged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine

Now your bias is showing. I don't demonize him, but I'm not going to canonize him either. I am actually glad someone is doing something for the Syrian Christians. But Putin is what he is, a Russian nationalist pushing Russian interests. The mistake is thinking that Russian interests and Orthodox interests are the same.

Indeed.


Who said anything about glorification?


Me too.


He is the president of Russia.


It has not been proven to me that his Orthodox faith does not factor into some of his decisions. I often find myself comparing his rhetoric and actions with the president of the U.S.

One of them is speaks against abortion, gay "marriage", euthanasia, and other immoral issues.

The other one is a champion of abortion and gay "marriage." He campaigns for the increased funding of Planned Parenthood...and has gay month at the White House.

One of them encourages the building of Orthodox Churches and Monasteries.

The other one is squashing religious freedom/speech....and forces churches and religious institutions to pay for contraception.

One of them is defending the Christians in Syria.

The other one has allowed weapons, ammunition, and vehicles to fall into the hands of ISIS....supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt...... and doesn't seem to care much about the plight of Christians.

I often find myself wishing we had a president more like Putin.....but that's just my bias showing.

I have never said I supported Obama or his failed foreign policy efforts so I am not sure what that has to do with anything. As to Putin, he can annex Crimea but is unable to shut down Russia's abortion industry? Seems to me the former is harder than the latter. As to religious freedom, not so much for Greek Catholics or non-MP Orthodox in Crimea and Russian controlled Ukraine.

Never said you did. I was making a comparison.


I believe he will do more to suppress this industry in Russia, than those politicians from countries who worship at the demonic altar of abortion.


Ha. As I have said many times. I'm not going tit for tat with you Fr. Deacon. I have read multitudes of articles of persecutions and travesties committed against the Ukrainian Orthodox MP....committed by the groups you have mentioned.

Let's not go there.....it does not lead to a good place.

Furthermore, this thread has once again deteriorated into a critical dissertation on Vladimir Putin. And I am also guilty for contributing to the derailment.

My thoughts and prayers will be with the Syrian Christians and others in the Middle East who are being persecuted and murdered by Islamic terrorists. The one thing that most of us agree with.....is that Russia is giving them a small ray of hope.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Alice,

There is, of course, no "black and white" in foreign policy on either side. I agree that the U.S. foreign policy has been a disaster.

As for supporting terrorists, yes, this is correct.

At the same time, the Russian government is likewise supporting terrorists and even exporting terrorism. Its alliance with Iran is a case in point.

The Russian government is also supporting terrorist groups in south-eastern Ukraine where thousands of Orthodox and EC's have been killed based on an equally reprehensible Russian foreign policy that states that territories where Russians live ought to belong to Russia.

This is the same foreign policy that guided Hitler in the years leading to WWII.

As for the statements of the Melkite Patriarch in Syria and others, we simply don't know what the real impact of Russian bombing is having on Christians. The proxy war between the U.S. and Russia that is going on there now may indeed have made the various Islamist groups scramble for cover - for now.

The point is simply that what the Patriarch said was both diplomatic and proper. He wanted to show that he is on the side of the government so that the Church is not seen as an enemy of the state. That is the correct thing to do.

Also, the article given by Recluse regarding Russian military hits on ISIS - unless this can be confirmed by sources other than "Russia Today" it is really quite worthless as RT is a pro-Russian government media arm.

It is true that American journalists worked for RT. But during the Maidan uprising in Ukraine when RT called the grandmothers and students opposing Yanukovych "nazis" and "fascists" two and more of those journalists resigned from RT having quickly come to the same conclusion about who it is a front for.

Finally, and I raise this simply because of the kerfuffle here over the Russian government invasion of Crimea and south-eastern Ukraine, the matter of the rights of Kyivan Patriarchate Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in those areas was juxtaposed with the tensions between the KP Orthodox/EC's and the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine proper.

The important difference is that the position of the KP Orthodox and EC's in Crimea is one that is influenced by the aggressor military power in control there for now.

In Ukraine proper, struggles over parishes etc. are local and these are followed by condemnations by the leadership of the KP and the UGCC, as well as by the government. (One recent example is that over a dozen UGCC priests have announced they will run for political office, in direct contravention of the UGCC Synod's rules that NO priest is to run for or hold political office - these priests will be severely disciplined if they do not obey their patriarch's direct order to withdraw from politics).

Another element of this tension is likewise missing here - that members of the canonical UOC-MP themselves are now protesting against their first Hierarch, especially after he made quite the shameful demonstration in the Ukrainian Parliament some months back by refusing to stand in honour of the soldiers, both living and reposed, being given medals in a special ceremony there.

So even Buddhists and others stood while the UOC-MP Primate sat alone with his two bishops!

I wonder what the reaction would be from the government in Moscow had the ROC patriarch sat through a similar ceremony?

Be that as it may, what the Hierarch did has also provoked widespread unrest among the CANONICAL flock as well. I doubt very much if RT would carry any reports of this as well.

This is all grist for the debating mill. We all have our biases, as we like to remind ourselves.

Alex

Indeed. And you are very outspoken about yours.

All of your accusations can be countered 180 degrees from the opposite perspective. I have seen countless articles about the Ukrainian Orthodox Church MP being persecuted and priests/laity being assaulted by the very groups that you claim to be victims. You can't even give legitimacy to the statements of the Melkite Patriarch.

I suppose this forum gives you an outlet to voice your frustrations. But your posts often cause great sadness in my heart.

Ha! And I often see more truth and factual reporting emanating from RT......than I do from CNN, MSNBC, OR FOX combined.

Let's not be naive here, sure RT reports "facts", it's the way that it's reported and the manner that leads to a certain view. For example, I do watch RT, it's on certain channels in my area - along with DW (German), KoreanNews, ChineseNews, etc. RT is not above rhetoric or propaganda.

All news networks have a propaganda angle, but some are worse than others, and RT is down there with Fox News as one of the worst. I find it amusing to see people guffaw at Faux News while swallowing stories from RT wholesale.

It is true that all networks have their slant.

But it is interesting that you are a self proclaimed socialist...and you feel that Fox News is inundated with propaganda. It is usually the liberal progressive Marxists who refer to it as "Faux News."

Dear Recluse,

OK, that is part of the debating process and it shouldn't bring sadness but a certain . . . spring to one's step!

I didn't affirm that what the Melkite Patriarch said was anything other than, in the first instance, what he should have said.

Let's remember that there is no governing authority in Syria without blood on its hands - especially not Assad.

But it isn't the Christians' job to condemn this or that side in general. It IS their job to see how much they can protect themselves from further persecution and that is what the Melkite Patriarch did. He isn't the first hierarch/church authority to do that.

As for "victimhood" in Ukraine, the EC's and autocephalous Orthodox movement there have suffered martyrdom to the nth degree.

Again, just drawing attention to the distinction between what is government-sponsored discrimination, as in Crimea, and what are local tensions involving the MP with: KP, UGCC AND members of the UOC-MP itself over the shameful way their First Hierarch behaved. Even the MP Metropolitan Aleksandr Drabenko gave an interview to the media in which he explained the Primate's strong pro-Russian sympathies. That is what is upsetting even his own canonical flock.

We can go back and forth over who is the greater victim. But then we would have to go back in time a bit, and we really don't want to do that do we?).

I'm simply giving a counter-argument to what you said on behalf of my Church which I certainly have a right to do.

Feel free to respond, but, as I agreed, I will leave it at that with a spiritual bow to you asking your forgiveness.

Alex

And, Brother Recluse, it matters not which forum I'm on.

I speak my mind, sometimes undiplomatically, all the time!

But I like the fact that you are an anti-socialist! We now share an "anti-something" characteristic!

Alex

Dear Swan,

Well, I will say that it is high near impossible to pigeon-hole you in any way, shape or form!

That is a gift sir! I wouldn't want you as an enemy!

Alex

OK, guys, I think we've done all this to death.

Let's call a truce and try not to get under each other's skin too much from now on.

I know I'm largely to blame for this.

At the end of the day, Mr. Putin doesn't care if I like him or not.

I care whether I've offended Recluse or Swan or any of you.

Dosvidanniya!

Alex

I do not think that is necessary. There are victims on both sides. We do not know all the reasons why God allows such suffering. The Book of Job can give us insight.


I have said enough.


God forgives and so do I. Forgive me.

PS...I do not know if you are liberal or conservative. As you may have guessed, I am conservative in my politics and traditionalist in my spirituality. And so I offer my condolences for the liberals winning vast control of Canada.

Hehehe...you mean he isn't in his room crying?

Dear Recluse,

I am a Conservative so, yes, I'm in mourning today.

The Liberal leader is a "Catholic" who mandated that any candidate belonging to his party who is against abortion on demand etc. etc. will be thrown out.

Canada has veered to the left, like a pendulum swinging mindlessly . . .

Let's see what the end result will be . . .

Alex

No, as he doesn't know whether I like him or not. (If you should come across him, please don't tell him, Alice - I'd like to keep him guessing! ).

Alex

Dear Alex,

This grieves me deeply. Oh the horror!