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Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Mark R] #414709 01/29/16 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R
My contribution may be totally irrelevant, but here goes...Why this burning desire to share the date of Pascha with a (Western) Church (or churches) whose observance of said feast is quite possibly the most anti-climactic thing I know of...in contradistinction to what any Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Church celebrates?
I probably have less at stake than any one here on this question, so I may be butting in, but at least try to see my view as an attempt at objectivity or an "outsider's opinion"


I agree. There has been a climate of "ecumania" for a number of years that defies any common or good sense. I know Christ said that they all may be one, but one what? Do we stop believing in the apostolic doctrines and creed so we can be more like alternate religions? We can be "one" at any time if we stop being what we are. It ain't worth it.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #414713 01/29/16 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
All my life the Julian calendar was ingrained in me as the "Ukrainian calendar" and the badge of Ukrainian identity.
As I called it before: calendar-jingoism. What rules our liturgical life, religion or nationalism? I'm reminded here of this (true) story told (in a class of his I was taking and as I recall it) by an Armenian, himself, and theology professor. A priest noticed the devotion of a man who at the liturgy would always come forward to kiss the Gospel Book. The priest was edified by the man's devotion and when he had the opportunity, he commented to the man on his fervor for the Gospel. The man commented (snidely as the prof mimicked): I come forward to venerate the holy Armenian alphabet.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
My father insisted we take January 7, 8 and 9 off as the three days of the Nativity, then January 14th as New Year's Day and the Naming of Christ, then January 19th for the Theophany.
How exactly does this work? Is there a separate Julian calendar on the wall? If your father gave the dates as indicated he was transposing and using the Gregorian calendar. If these Gregorian values are the traditional dates ingrained and venerated, your father lucked out. The Julian calendar error usually gains a day every ~128 years and it seems it is tabulated at the turn of the century. It increased from 12 to 13 days in 1900. The year 2000, however, was a leap year for both calendars and so your father did not have to face the issue of going from a 13-day to a 14-day correction. Some Ukrainian father will face this problem, however, in 2100.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: byzanTN] #414714 01/29/16 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by Mark R
My contribution may be totally irrelevant, but here goes...Why this burning desire to share the date of Pascha with a (Western) Church (or churches) whose observance of said feast is quite possibly the most anti-climactic thing I know of...in contradistinction to what any Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Church celebrates?
I probably have less at stake than any one here on this question, so I may be butting in, but at least try to see my view as an attempt at objectivity or an "outsider's opinion"


I agree. There has been a climate of "ecumania" for a number of years that defies any common or good sense. I know Christ said that they all may be one, but one what? Do we stop believing in the apostolic doctrines and creed so we can be more like alternate religions? We can be "one" at any time if we stop being what we are. It ain't worth it.
Opinions like this are valid and understandable but ignore the facts. In these calendar discussions there is always the reminder, the caveat, that unity is the primary goal, abandon what one must to achieve it. Why not unity by just following the proposed solution that all agree upon, that is the desired standard? Others see instead the sin of ecumenism (period), the false doctrine of pernicious syncretism, and also those who temper this stand in various ways. The neo-pagans are following us is a new one for me. Why, on their account should we abandon what is ours? Besides, take some consolation in:

Mark 9:38-40 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name,[a] and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us.

This Gregorian calendar that was explicitly formulated to serve the Church's need but that has become the civil world's standard should be acknowledged and lauded as such; it also should be appreciated in its historical context: Though functioning as such behind the scenes, atheist, agnostic, heretic, secular-humanist, pagan etc. use a calendar with the Resurrection of Christ, Pascha, as its focus, foundation, and reason for being.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Dr. Henry P.] #414717 01/29/16 01:42 PM
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Me again. I don't know if American Greek Catholics or American members of many Orthodox jurisdictions appreciate the "moving of the goal posts" of the New Calendar has on countries and jurisdictions which actually observe the services of the Church and her fasts more completely. It ain't just Sundays and feast days for many Orthodox. I do not call into question the discipleship of the Greek Catholics or the Roman Catholic Church, but the Latin penchant for parsing things at their absolute minimum for efficacy is an unintended but inevitable outcome of the Unia. This tendency in the West is fully admitted by a late, venerable German liturgical scholar whose name escapes me. And this phenomenon happened in full force in churches following the Reformation...the Anglicans included.
I would not argue that the goal is to have the longest and most frequent services possible, but to question the provenance of these innovations and perhaps by their results determine the true spirit in which they were initiated.
I realise these are times when those who profess Christ will become in the minority in the West. Anything that boosts actual, credal unity is to be lauded, but is this achieved by merely "being on the same page"?

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Mark R] #414720 01/29/16 06:15 PM
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I realise these are times when those who profess Christ will become in the minority in the West. Anything that boosts actual, credal unity is to be lauded, but is this achieved by merely "being on the same page"?


No, it isn't. Being on the same page is only worth what is written on that page. If it contains syncretism, then it is a wide and broad page leading to destruction.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: ajk] #414723 01/29/16 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
All my life the Julian calendar was ingrained in me as the "Ukrainian calendar" and the badge of Ukrainian identity.
As I called it before: calendar-jingoism. What rules our liturgical life, religion or nationalism? I'm reminded here of this (true) story told (in a class of his I was taking and as I recall it) by an Armenian, himself, and theology professor. A priest noticed the devotion of a man who at the liturgy would always come forward to kiss the Gospel Book. The priest was edified by the man's devotion and when he had the opportunity, he commented to the man on his fervor for the Gospel. The man commented (snidely as the prof mimicked): I come forward to venerate the holy Armenian alphabet.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
My father insisted we take January 7, 8 and 9 off as the three days of the Nativity, then January 14th as New Year's Day and the Naming of Christ, then January 19th for the Theophany.
How exactly does this work? Is there a separate Julian calendar on the wall? If your father gave the dates as indicated he was transposing and using the Gregorian calendar. If these Gregorian values are the traditional dates ingrained and venerated, your father lucked out. The Julian calendar error usually gains a day every ~128 years and it seems it is tabulated at the turn of the century. It increased from 12 to 13 days in 1900. The year 2000, however, was a leap year for both calendars and so your father did not have to face the issue of going from a 13-day to a 14-day correction. Some Ukrainian father will face this problem, however, in 2100.


Dear Father Deacon,

Your pastoral-cultural sensitivity to people's traditions really does stink - yes, I have the gall and don't feel so indignant because you are a deacon.

Next year, I'm going all-out on the Julian Calendar (lots of calendars that indicate the Julian feast days and I have two on the walls of my home).

And I'll do that with my friends whose spirituality as Old Calendarists is truly admirable.

I've given you a list of articles on the Julian calendar above so at least you can have some familiarity with why Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who follow it, do so with such devotion.

Alex

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #414729 01/30/16 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
All my life the Julian calendar was ingrained in me as the "Ukrainian calendar" and the badge of Ukrainian identity.
As I called it before: calendar-jingoism. What rules our liturgical life, religion or nationalism? I'm reminded here of this (true) story told (in a class of his I was taking and as I recall it) by an Armenian, himself, and theology professor. A priest noticed the devotion of a man who at the liturgy would always come forward to kiss the Gospel Book. The priest was edified by the man's devotion and when he had the opportunity, he commended [ed. ajk] the man on his fervor for the Gospel. The man commented (snidely as the prof mimicked): I come forward to venerate the holy Armenian alphabet.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
My father insisted we take January 7, 8 and 9 off as the three days of the Nativity, then January 14th as New Year's Day and the Naming of Christ, then January 19th for the Theophany.
How exactly does this work? Is there a separate Julian calendar on the wall? If your father gave the dates as indicated he was transposing and using the Gregorian calendar. If these Gregorian values are the traditional dates ingrained and venerated, your father lucked out. The Julian calendar error usually gains a day every ~128 years and it seems it is tabulated at the turn of the century. It increased from 12 to 13 days in 1900. The year 2000, however, was a leap year for both calendars and so your father did not have to face the issue of going from a 13-day to a 14-day correction. Some Ukrainian father will face this problem, however, in 2100.


Dear Father Deacon,

Your pastoral-cultural sensitivity to people's traditions really does stink -
What I'm smelling in your Ukrainianism is the stench of pyletism:

Quote
Phyletism or ethnophyletism (from Greek ἔθνος ethnos "nation" and φυλετισμός phyletismos "tribalism") is the principle of nationalities applied in the ecclesiastical domain: in other words, the conflation between Church and nation. The term ethnophyletismos designates the idea that a local autocephalous Church should be based not on a local [ecclesial] criterion, but on an ethnophyletist, national or linguistic one. It was used at the Holy and Great [Μείζων Meizon "enlarged"] pan-Orthodox Synod in Constantinople on 10 September 1872 to qualify “phyletist (religious) nationalism,” which was condemned as a modern ecclesial heresy: the Church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race.
Phyletism


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
yes, I have the gall and don't feel so indignant because you are a deacon.
Alex, you need to work on your close-reading skills and not make unfounded characterizations of me. For the record this is what I wrote:

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
You are unable to see the "truth" of things which cannot be proven scientifically. That is the limitation of the natural science approach, the approach of positivism.
I'm amazed you have the gall to concluded something so foolish and then put it on a forum.


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Next year, I'm going all-out on the Julian Calendar (lots of calendars that indicate the Julian feast days and I have two on the walls of my home).
OK. I thought you wrote here, however, that you prefer the Gregorian calendar.

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
And I'll do that with my friends whose spirituality as Old Calendarists is truly admirable.
I never said it wasn't. If you would read it again, my mock-up pastoral statement characterizing my pastoral approach and sensitivities that you find so odious begins:
Originally Posted by ajk
Dear people, you celebrate Pascha worthily and well...


Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
I've given you a list of articles on the Julian calendar above so at least you can have some familiarity with why Orthodox and Eastern Catholics who follow it, do so with such devotion.
I have dealt with the material on that horrible site (at least about the calendar and ecumenism) in a prior calendar thread. The site is riddled with inaccuracies, fabrications and it seem to me invincible ignorance. I call it the Orthodox Un-Christian Mis-information Center. I don't put an Un- before the word Orthodox only because I can't speak for them, but they would be well advised to do so here.

Anyway, there are so many errors that it would take exhaustive writing to comment and correct. Give me specific points raised there, however, and I'll readily comment.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: ajk] #414761 02/01/16 04:57 PM
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AJK,

OK, that is at least a response to the list of those articles - thank you. I would still like to see an articulate Julian Calendar Orthodox here to lay out the arguments - unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any at hand.

As for phyletism - where did you get that idea from? It is because you don't have the capacity to examine your scientific demagoguery and your inability to respect the cultural traditions of Ukrainians, Russians (oh, sorry - Swan says I'm supposed to be against all Russians - my apology) and others.

The fact that there are people, like my family and others, for whom the Julian Calendar was an important instrument of cultural maintenance (probably not any longer) is not "phyletism." Your quote shows that you prefer to point to something rather than to actually debate those with whom you do not agree. That is just bad form.

Let's not argue because I took what you said as being a slight not against myself, but against those I have always honoured in my family.

Alex

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #414762 02/01/16 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
It is because you don't have the capacity to examine your scientific demagoguery...
Curious choice of words, "demagoguery."

Quote
Demagoguery is an appeal to people that plays on their emotions and prejudices rather than on their rational side.
Who does that sound like?

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
and your inability to respect the cultural traditions of Ukrainians...
I trust my grandfather, Dmytro who, after emigrating to the US from Galicia (Галичина) in 1902 and after its founding in 1908, was a life-long member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, would want to take issue with you.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: ajk] #414769 02/01/16 11:04 PM
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I withdraw my comments and apologize to Father Deacon for anything and everything I said that would have given him offense. I'll go to confession.

Alex

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Dr. Henry P.] #414771 02/01/16 11:33 PM
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Interesting, while - in some places - not very edifying thread.

IMHO the best solution would be for both parts (Catholics and Orthodox) to adopt Milanković's reform fully, as the Serbian astronom had planned: together with his new Paschalion, which as I believe basically corresponds with the Aleppo proposal.

It would be (or at least could be) a move the Orthodox could "swallow". The concept was worked out by an Orthodox scientist, so it would be "the Orthodox response to the Pope's calendar", and the better calendar in fact. The Orthodox correcting the Pope with Pope's consent - it sounds not bad for Orthodox ears, I suppose.

However, since the Orthodox are far from achieving calendar unity among themselves, such a reform seems not very likely today. So maybe the compromise - "new" dates for fixed feasts, together with the old Paschalion - would be the best solution just for today?

BTW, for the UGCC in Poland the calendar issue is something to be resolved in the near future. The common Convent of our two eparchies (2014, October 2nd-4th) was the place of vivid calendar discussions. As a result, an official poll is being prepared. IMO the best solution for Poland - taking into account the mass immigration from Ukraine - is to adopt the Revised Julian Calendar as observed by some Orthodox Churches (our Mother Church of Constantinople included), while celebrating in the parishes where such a need would arise additional Nativity and Theophany Liturgies on, respective,
January 7th and 19th.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Deacon Peter] #414781 02/02/16 10:54 PM
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Dear Father Deacon,

To me, you sound like you have a very deep pastoral understanding.

I apologise for any and all things I said that were not edifying here and was reacting to how I perceived AJK's comments.

These are sensitive matters, as you well know.

The over-riding concern would be to one day have a single calendar with a single celebration of Pascha among the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (the others will follow, I'm sure).

Alex

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Deacon Peter] #414787 02/03/16 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Deacon Peter
Interesting, while - in some places - not very edifying thread.

IMHO the best solution would be for both parts (Catholics and Orthodox) to adopt Milankovic's reform fully, as the Serbian astronom had planned: together with his new Paschalion, which as I believe basically corresponds with the Aleppo proposal.

It should be noted that the Aleppo approach is very neutral and general in that it does not rely on nor is it tied to a calendar. It does have to add the arbitrary factor of a fixed place followed by detailed astronomical calculations specific for each year. Nicaea_I didn't specify a meridian and even at the time of the Gregorian calendar reform detailed astronomical calculations specific for each year would have been overwhelming if even possible. Besides, a calendar and paschalion method does a similar job in a simpler and less specific though equally legitimate way.

Milankovic's calendar and Paschalion, as some others, also does the job. But there's a few hitches; some are rather technical and I will include them in a separate post. One immediate one is that the Milankovic calendar determines leap years different from the Gregorian. So even if the churches agree on it, they will have a calendar that can be in and out of sync with the presently accepted civil calendar, and that is the Gregorian. To get everyone in on the new Milankovic method, all the governments (because of international transportation, commerce, finances etc.) would in some form need to adopt it also.

Originally Posted by Deacon Peter
It would be (or at least could be) a move the Orthodox could "swallow". The concept was worked out by an Orthodox scientist, so it would be "the Orthodox response to the Pope's calendar", and the better calendar in fact. The Orthodox correcting the Pope with Pope's consent - it sounds not bad for Orthodox ears, I suppose.

I'll comment on the assertion that the Milankovic calendar is the "better calendar in fact" in my next post.

Overall, this is a fair appraisal but put this way, reading it, it sounds like such childish behavior. I say that not as a barb but a regrettable fact. My sympathies are with Catholic and Orthodox hierarchies, since there are Julian calendar stalwarts in both churches, but only to a point. My criticism is how the churches got there, when, where, why and how the people have been taught and conditioned and even brainwashed into believing in a calendar more than the present voice of the church itself. It's my story (in a prior post) of venerating the alphabet rather than the Gospel Book, in different guise. Churches that have created such a calendar creature need to examine their conscience, do penance where profitable, and correct it without delay or excuse.

Originally Posted by Deacon Peter
However, since the Orthodox are far from achieving calendar unity among themselves, such a reform seems not very likely today. So maybe the compromise - "new" dates for fixed feasts, together with the old Paschalion - would be the best solution just for today?
BTW, for the UGCC in Poland the calendar issue is something to be resolved in the near future. The common Convent of our two eparchies (2014, October 2nd-4th) was the place of vivid calendar discussions. As a result, an official poll is being prepared. IMO the best solution for Poland - taking into account the mass immigration from Ukraine - is to adopt the Revised Julian Calendar as observed by some Orthodox Churches (our Mother Church of Constantinople included), while celebrating in the parishes where such a need would arise additional Nativity and Theophany Liturgies on, respective, January 7th and 19th.
Fixed feasts in the Gregorian or Milankovic calendar and Julian paschalion when it doesn't coincide with the Gregorian or Milankovic is a bad mix, a disruption, more than likely, in the inter-meshing of the two cycles -- very hard on the Typicon.

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #414927 02/11/16 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic

I apologise for any and all things I said that were not edifying here and was reacting to how I perceived AJK's comments.


My remark was intented as a general one. Thanks for your kind words. smile

Re: Calendar-Easter [Re: ajk] #414929 02/11/16 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk



It should be noted that the Aleppo approach is very neutral and general in that it does not rely on nor is it tied to a calendar. It does have to add the arbitrary factor of a fixed place followed by detailed astronomical calculations specific for each year. Nicaea_I didn't specify a meridian and even at the time of the Gregorian calendar reform detailed astronomical calculations specific for each year would have been overwhelming if even possible. Besides, a calendar and paschalion method does a similar job in a simpler and less specific though equally legitimate way.


I have nothing against Aleppo proposal, believe me. In fact I was near or even just the one person to propagate it in Poland. smile


Quote

Milankovic's calendar and Paschalion, as some others, also does the job. But there's a few hitches; some are rather technical and I will include them in a separate post.


I am waiting for your post. I'd love to read about these "hitches".

Quote

One immediate one is that the Milankovic calendar determines leap years different from the Gregorian. So even if the churches agree on it, they will have a calendar that can be in and out of sync with the presently accepted civil calendar, and that is the Gregorian. To get everyone in on the new Milankovic method, all the governments (because of international transportation, commerce, finances etc.) would in some form need to adopt it also.


Yes, but we (they) would have plenty of time, since in practice the first "day of incoherence" would occur in (after?) 2800.


Quote

I'll comment on the assertion that the Milankovic calendar is the "better calendar in fact" in my next post.


I am waiting impatiently!

Quote

Overall, this is a fair appraisal but put this way, reading it, it sounds like such childish behavior. I say that not as a barb but a regrettable fact. My sympathies are with Catholic and Orthodox hierarchies, since there are Julian calendar stalwarts in both churches, but only to a point. My criticism is how the churches got there, when, where, why and how the people have been taught and conditioned and even brainwashed into believing in a calendar more than the present voice of the church itself. It's my story (in a prior post) of venerating the alphabet rather than the Gospel Book, in different guise.


I am of opinion that if one wants to achieve a goal, one must be realistic. My approach is realistic, because I take into account the reality you have just described above. We have to deal with such people, we are not able to replace our counterparts into better ones...

Quote

Churches that have created such a calendar creature need to examine their conscience, do penance where profitable, and correct it without delay or excuse.


...or to coerce them to penance.

Quote
Fixed feasts in the Gregorian or Milankovic calendar and Julian paschalion when it doesn't coincide with the Gregorian or Milankovic is a bad mix, a disruption, more than likely, in the inter-meshing of the two cycles -- very hard on the Typicon.



The shortcomings of this solution are well known (lack of Kyriopascha, which is rare phenomenon iself, shorter Petrine Fast or even lack of it every nine years and so on), because this combination...is widely used in Orthodox world, known as Revised Julian Calendar. The RJC may lack many things, but it is observed by Churches/people and...both cope somehow.

Last edited by Deacon Peter; 02/11/16 09:32 PM.
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