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Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #393557 04/22/13 08:05 PM
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eamon Offline
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well.... all due apologies to Neil and the rest.........the Letter from Mar Awa Royel is very clear............as the kids say.... My bad.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: IAlmisry] #393603 04/24/13 09:14 AM
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Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Diak
The UAOCC has married bishops? That is new to me. What about the UAOC "proper"?


The UAOC "proper" under Metropolitan +Mefodiy does not have married bishops. The "UAOC-Canonical" is a misleading name, is not considered "canonical" by any jurisdictions I know of, and has no formal connection with the UAOC under +Mefodiy.

I'm not sure if that says anything, as "The UAOC "proper" under Metropolitan +Mefodiy" "is not considered "canonical" by any jurisdictions" either.


That's rather a non-sequitor, since the UAOC doesn't have the word "Canonical" in its name.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: eamon] #396092 06/28/13 03:22 AM
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Divine Frenzy Offline
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I just noticed your reply Eamon and I wanted to respond.

First, when I wrote my previous comment, I wanted to demonstrate that Ramzi is not in communion with the Assyrian Church. Mar Awa Royel is clear that the "cleric known as the "Most Rev. Bishop Ramzi R. Musallam" is not, at present, neither has he been at any time a bishop of the Assyrian Church of the East." That's their word.

Second, what I've heard is that Ramzi was consecrated a bishop within the Assyrian Church by a bishop within it. I wonder if it's worth challenging Royel's statement that Ramzi never was a bishop in their church, meaning that no bishop ever consecrated him. I want to know the name of the supposed bishop that Ramzi himself claims consecrated him. This is all hearsay and speculative, but I wonder where this trail leads. Whatever I find, I know what Royel thinks.

Third, what I do know is that Ramzi was consecrated by Bell. My proof for this indicates another consecration and an alleged consecration.

Here's my proof: http://www.hrcac.org.uk/images/Apostolic_Succession/ramzi%20musallam%20decree%20of%20null%20and%20void.pdf

Add the supposed consecration I've already mentioned and Ramzi has four consecrations under his belt. His consecration by Bell is easy to demonstrate. Bell states he has evidence of his consecration by Archbishop John Parnell of the Mexican National Catholic Church and an alleged consecration by the then Primus of the Reformed Catholic Church. He never gives his name. I'd be worth e-mailing Bell for more information.

That's it. I stopped my research a while ago since I'm busy.

God bless~!

-Jonathan

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Divine Frenzy] #396116 06/28/13 11:20 PM
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Divine Frenzy Offline
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I recently found the statement by Mar Awa Royel on his own church's website by typing "Mar Awa Musalla" on google. Try it. It is the first link titled 'Assyrian...' and then a bunch of arabic words. It should lead to this pdf, rather than the image I shared earlier: http://news.assyrianchurch.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Holy-Synod-Secretariat-Statement-of-Clarification-Re-Musallam.pdf

This is definitely better!

Also, Eamon, earlier, you wrote, "On the website in question you will note that at the bottom there is a slide show. about half way through, there is a picture of Mar Awa, the head of the Assyrian Church in the US, and the Caption says Mar Awa at Full Communion Mass, May 5,2010."

Several months ago, I was able to see those pictures as well. The website in question is the Arabic Catholic Church's previous website: http://www.arabiccatholicarchdiocese.org/

He made a new website so this old one is lost. It's the one everyone was able to look through in this thread back in 2011. Fortunately, it's not entirely lost. I was able to see the picture by finding parts of the site at different times in the past on Wayback Machine here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090930014835*/http://www.arabiccatholicarchdiocese.org/

You can also go to the website here: http://archive.org/web/web.php

Type in: http://www.arabiccatholicarchdiocese.org/

And you should have a peek into the past.

For those who are curious, his current website is: http://www.catholicchurchoftheeast.org/

His previous website mentions "Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East His Holiness Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV May God Grant Him Many Happy Years!" here: http://web.archive.org/web/20110624052340/http://www.arabiccatholicarchdiocese.org/

I suspect it was because the statement declared "neither the “Most Rev. Bishop Ramzi R. Musallam” nor the “Arabic Catholic Archdiocese” nor the “Catholic Church of the EastArchdiocese of St. James the Apostle” have the authority to utilize the name of the Assyrian Church of the East or its derivatives on any headed letter, written or oral communication, legal instruments or website (www.arabiccatholicarchdiocese.org) at this time or in the future" that Ramzi made a new website. The statement was issued on "27th day of June, 2011" and the newest time we have of Ramzi's previous site is June 24th, 2011.

When I did research on it, I was able to see those pictures you mention, using Wayback Machine. Now, I cannot see them. It would be useful to find them to see if they are photoshopped or anything. Pictures can be manipulated. Also, context of the picture can be manipulated. It's very likely a lie that he was consecrated a bishop, but I'd still like to see those pictures again.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414492 01/13/16 07:28 PM
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He's back in the news:
http://timesleader.com/news/503281/...ussian-orthodox-outside-church-of-russia

The article is beyond confusing!

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Michael_Thoma] #414635 01/22/16 10:40 AM
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Rhinelander Waldo Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
He's back in the news:
http://timesleader.com/news/503281/...ussian-orthodox-outside-church-of-russia

The article is beyond confusing!


Yes, a very odd situation.

See:

http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-highly-suspicious-news-story.html

http://www.pahomepage.com/news/historic-church-reopens-in-pittston

http://wnep.com/2016/01/13/closed-catholic-church-reopens-with-different-form-of-worship/

The Roman Catholic Diocese of Scranton, PA has taken notice of these strange goings on and has posted a warning to Roman Catholics:

http://www.dioceseofscranton.org/notice-regarding-the-former-saint-roccos-church-in-pittston/

(notice that several of those news reports mention that some former St. Rocco's Catholic Church parishoners are now attending "Mass" at the new "St. Irene's ROCOR".)


Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414636 01/22/16 10:50 AM
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Check out the recently updated website of Ramzi Musallam's "Catholic Church of the East" denomination:

http://www.catholicchurchoftheeast.org/

"We are happy to announce that the Catholic Church of the East is now under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia."


And if you click on the link About the Most Rev. Ramzi Musallam you will read that the former Most. Rev. Archbishop of the Catholic Church of the East is now "Hieromonk Father Elias Musallam"

http://www.catholicchurchoftheeast.org/Most-Rev--Ramzi-R--Musallam.html

" ... he was received into the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in 2015.

Was Ordained to the Deaconate at Saint John the Baptist Cathedral in Mayfield Pennsylvania by His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and was elevated to the Priesthood by Metropolitan Jonah at Saint John Baptist Cathedral in Washington DC."


Oddly enough none of this has been reported on any of the various ROCOR websites and Facebook pages , except on Ramzi Musallam's Facebook page where on August 19, 2015 , he posted a photo of himself in Orthodox vestments with the caption:

"Former Archbishop Ramzi R Musallam now Father Ilianos and Catholic Church of the East is now Russian Orthodox Church ROCOR".

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...et=ecnf.513182532&type=3&theater


.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414703 01/28/16 06:01 PM
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Here is an update .

http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-update-on-bishop-ramzi-r-musallam.html

Still many unanswered questions about how someone who is well-known as an episcopus vagans (with multiple consecrations) heading up a fake Catholic Church for many years suddenly pops up as a priest in ROCOR. It seems as if ROCOR has done themselves no favors in erasing the perception in some quarters that they are a harbor for ecclesiastical odd ducks.

Quote

"Metropolitan Hilarion has confirmed that Fr. Elias (Ranzi Musallam) is in fact a priest (not bishop) in good standing with the Russian Church Abroad. He was brought in by Metropolitan Jonah. Apparently the news story contained a number of inaccuracies."



http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-update-on-bishop-ramzi-r-musallam.html

.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414845 02/06/16 11:09 AM
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Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414846 02/06/16 11:36 AM
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Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Michael_Thoma] #414847 02/06/16 12:50 PM
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byzanTN Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?


It's a universal problem. Why do some eastern Catholic and Latins make the same mistake? I have begun to think the most obnoxious and misfit converts can say and do the right things in front of the bishops and get ordained. Then we in the pews have to put up with them for years to come.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: byzanTN] #414848 02/06/16 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by byzanTN
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Why do some Orthodox jurisdictions keep making the mistake of ordaining recent converts - especially hoppers and shoppers - to orders without some time of discernment? Why rush to make them priest or deacon without first giving them a year or three as laymen?


It's a universal problem. Why do some eastern Catholic and Latins make the same mistake? I have begun to think the most obnoxious and misfit converts can say and do the right things in front of the bishops and get ordained. Then we in the pews have to put up with them for years to come.


ByzanTN,

I don't see the Catholic communion taking in ecclesial wanderers at the rate some Orthodox jurisdictions (especially ROCOR) do. If anything the Catholic Church vets non-Catholic clerics who want to be ordained in the Catholic Church rather thoroughly before accepting them. I'm thinking of the Anglican Ordinariates in particular.

Anthony


Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Anthony] #414849 02/06/16 01:47 PM
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Quote
ByzanTN,

I don't see the Catholic communion taking in ecclesial wanderers at the rate some Orthodox jurisdictions (especially ROCOR) do. If anything the Catholic Church vets non-Catholic clerics who want to be ordained in the Catholic Church rather thoroughly before accepting them. I'm thinking of the Anglican Ordinariates in particular.

Anthony


The Ordinariate is a special case and they do a good job with most things they do, including liturgy. The Latins are doing better than they used to do. When the seminaries were nearly empty some years ago, they were ordaining nearly anyone who could get through school. They had a serious priest shortage at the time. I think the sex scandals burned the Latins enough to examine candidates more thoroughly. The diaconate is still the wild west in too many places.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Michael_Thoma] #414855 02/06/16 11:29 PM
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Yes, Byztex has posted it as well. I've got a bad feeling about this. And Metropolitan Jonah received him...wow.

Byzantine, Texas:"Catholic Church of the East" enters ROCOR

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 02/06/16 11:32 PM.
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414857 02/07/16 01:10 AM
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Quite a history in the Northeastern Pennsylvania area. Sounds like they're hard up for members.

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