The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada, DMP
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 61 guests, and 460 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,958
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414877 02/09/16 02:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
I
Irish Melkite Offline OP
Global Moderator
Member
OP Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Going to be interesting to see how this all plays out!

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414896 02/10/16 11:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
JBenedict Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414897 02/10/16 11:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
JBenedict Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414898 02/10/16 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
JBenedict Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
This comment explains what the problem may have been.

Last edited by JBenedict; 02/10/16 11:40 AM. Reason: link
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414899 02/10/16 01:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 392
Anthony Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 392
ROCOR has a history of ordaining vagantes without properly vetting them. I don't know if they are looking to just inflate their membership, but it doesn't turn out well in the end.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414900 02/10/16 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Nelson Chase Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
It seems that the archbishop was ordained a deacon in the summer of last year (and was already a schemamonk). Once more details of the unraveling situation come to light, I am sure somehow he will be a "bishop" again.

[/url] [url=http://eadiocese.org/News/2015/july/myfld.en.htm]

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 02/10/16 01:35 PM.
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: byzanTN] #414902 02/10/16 02:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Originally Posted by byzanTN
Quote
ByzanTN,

I don't see the Catholic communion taking in ecclesial wanderers at the rate some Orthodox jurisdictions (especially ROCOR) do. If anything the Catholic Church vets non-Catholic clerics who want to be ordained in the Catholic Church rather thoroughly before accepting them. I'm thinking of the Anglican Ordinariates in particular.

Anthony


The Ordinariate is a special case and they do a good job with most things they do, including liturgy. The Latins are doing better than they used to do. When the seminaries were nearly empty some years ago, they were ordaining nearly anyone who could get through school. They had a serious priest shortage at the time. I think the sex scandals burned the Latins enough to examine candidates more thoroughly. The diaconate is still the wild west in too many places.


Dear Charles,

I'm intrigued by your comment here - but what do you mean that the diaconate is the wild west? They're too much like cowboys? smile

Alex

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Orthodox Catholic] #414903 02/10/16 02:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
We have to be careful on this forum when it comes to vagante bishops and such.

After all, some years back we on this forum joined hands in cyberspace and consecrated Mor Ephrem (Philip) a Catholicos (based in New Orleans . . .)! smile

We were all pretty sure at the time that this consecration was "illicit" but who really knows?

smile

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Nelson Chase] #414904 02/10/16 02:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
R
Rhinelander Waldo Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
It seems that the archbishop was ordained a deacon in the summer of last year (and was already a schemamonk). Once more details of the unraveling situation come to light, I am sure somehow he will be a "bishop" again.

http://eadiocese.org/News/2015/july/myfld.en.htm


If you use Google and archive.org to follow the trail Musallam has left over the years since he left the PNCC it appears that he's been "ordained" as a "bishop" multiple times by other vagantes of varying pedigree (all of them vagantes, but some more fringe than others). Everything about his self-created denomination "Catholic Church of the East"/"Arabic Catholic Church" was styled to make it appear as Roman Catholic as possible to the uninitiated , until very recently when he mysteriously pops up as a ROCOR deacon and priest in very short order. There have been a few tweaks to his website recently , for example changing the name of the CCE parish "Our Lady of Fatima" in Mt. Carmel, PA to "Our Lady of Theotokos" (how does that name even make sense? Theotokos is not a place like Fatima ... ) but other than that the CCE website still looks very Latin, very much like wannabe Roman Catholics ... the fit with ROCOR (not exactly known for being RC friendly) seemed ill-suited from the start , but was perhaps just a vain attempt to grab on to some "apostolic succession" to appear more legitimate. Unfortunately , he's now got it (genuine apostolic succession through ROCOR) and will probably continue to flaunt it even if this "merger" with ROCOR falls through , which seems likely.

In the meantime whoever updates the CCE website doesn't pay attention, because the recently renamed "Our Lady of Theotokos" from the homepage , is still called "Our Lady of Fatima" on another part of the website:

http://www.catholicchurchoftheeast.org/Our-Lady-of-Fatima-CCE.html

(I predict the CCE website will continue to have pages appearing and disappearing over the next few weeks/months or may just go back to what it was before this merger with ROCOR story broke ... the content of the CCE website has been in flux the last few weeks)

The deeper you dig, the worse it gets ...

Seems like from some other things I'm reading in the last couple of days that the ROCOR hierarchy is realizing what happened and they are seeking to contain the damage. Maybe they will finally take to heart St. Paul's admonition: "Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands" and there will not be any more Nathan Monks and Ramzi Musallams (although in fairness, Musallam appears to sincerely uphold traditional Christian morality , unlike Nathan Monk, so I'm not putting those two together in terms of belief and practice, but as examples of not adequately vetting men before laying hands on them to ordain them).

.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414905 02/10/16 04:40 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
D
DMD Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,953
I'm no 'fan' of the ROCOR, but with respect to the comment about ROCOR and improper vetting...they are not the only ones in Eastern Orthodoxy with a similar history....too many clerics from other Christian denominations have snookered various Orthodox bishops over the years causing problems in many places. I pray that the Assembly of Bishops will develop a consistent protocol for such receptions in terms of priestly formation, knowledge of Orthodox praxis, theology and so on before sending such folks out into the world with great fanfare and self satisfaction. Frankly in my experience, it is priests from the Eastern Catholic world who become Orthodox who cause the fewest such problems...usually that is a smooth transition.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: DMD] #414906 02/10/16 04:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Thank you for that compliment DMD!

It is always great to hear such welcoming words from an Orthodox Christian to potential converts from the Uniate world! wink

(I also think that when you get former EC's, you are getting the very best! )

Cheers, Alex

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Irish Melkite] #414908 02/10/16 11:22 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
M
Mark R Offline
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 294
How do people know ROCOR has a history of ordaining vagantes? It is not as though it it publicised and so many I know of went to Jordanville for seminary. And they would likely be rejected by their congregations if they were "off". When I moved to Seattle, the ROCOR priest was an elderly immigrant priest in good standing from Soviet Russia. A good chunk of the parish left to join the Old Calendar Greeks because they labelled him a communist -- and he wasn't a communist.

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Mark R] #414910 02/10/16 11:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,172
It's too bad they didn't consult with Fr. Deacon Anthony (AJK) here on the calendar question!

He'd give them a run for their money and he might have even have kept them all together . . . who knows as well? smile

Alex

Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Rhinelander Waldo] #414912 02/10/16 11:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
I
Irish Melkite Offline OP
Global Moderator
Member
OP Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Originally Posted by Rhinelander Waldo
If you use Google and archive.org to follow the trail Musallam has left over the years since he left the PNCC it appears that he's been "ordained" as a "bishop" multiple times by other vagantes of varying pedigree (all of them vagantes, but some more fringe than others). ... the fit with ROCOR (not exactly known for being RC friendly) seemed ill-suited from the start , but was perhaps just a vain attempt to grab on to some "apostolic succession" to appear more legitimate. Unfortunately , he's now got it (genuine apostolic succession through ROCOR) and will probably continue to flaunt it even if this "merger" with ROCOR falls through , which seems likely.


Waldo,

Actually, all he has is another presbyteral ordination and, at least from the Augustinian Theory of Apostolic Succession, he already had valid presbyteral orders through the PNCC, as its orders are held to be valid though illicit.

The presbyteral orders he obtained through ROCOR are subject to Orthodoxy's Cyprianic Theory of Apostolic Succession and, as such are essentially voided on separation from the bishop who laid hands on him.

For the benefit of those not familiar with the distinction between the two theories, let me quote a post made here long ago, rather than reinventing the wheel (apologies that not all of the discussion is relevant, but I was too lazy to continue excising):

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Quote
Originally posted by Mexican:
I have talked to a Catholic priest who believes that a Bishop from the Aftimios Ofiesh "line" can still offer real mysteries and have priestly powers, just as if Apostolic Succession was independent of the faith and union with what is considered to be the True Church.

Remie,
The theological praxis of Catholics and Orthodox as to the validity of orders and the dependent issue of the validity of sacraments differs significantly. That is fact and we can discuss, debate, and disagree over whether the other's stance is or is not rational, but it won't change the fact that it is what it is. The resolution of such will only occur, if it ever does and hopefully it ultimately will, in circles more august than this revered forum.

There are basically two theories of apostolic succession and, in most instances, the application of the theory held by a given Church effectively determines the validity accorded to claimed presbyteral and episcopal orders and, ipso facto, the validity of sacraments administered by those claiming to possess valid orders, whether presbyteral and/or episcopal (putting aside issues as to form and intent, since, if there is no validity to the orders of the sacrament's minister, other considerations are of no consequence to either Church).

If the orders claimed to be possessed are themselves invalid, the sacraments derived from him who claims to possess orders will, in turn, be invalid if the sacrament is one which requires conferral by an ordained minister - essentially any except Baptism in extremis in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and Marriage in the Latin Church, where the priest is seen as witnessing rather than conferring the sacrament.

The Augustinian theory effectively holds that valid episcopal ordination confers an indelible character that is not affected by any schismatic or heretical act or excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest, once validly ordained to the episcopate, retains his capacity to exercise that order, though he may have been deprived juridically of the office or jurisdiction by which he performed episcopal acts. The latter considerations affect only the licitness of his acts.

The Cyprianic theory effectively holds that a valid episcopal ordination is affected by schismatic or heretical acts and by excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order only so long as he continues in communion with the jurisdiction under the authority of which he was ordained to the episcopate (or such other jurisdiction into which he may have subsequently been accepted) and is exercising the office or jurisdiction by which he has the right to perform those acts. There is no distinction made as to licitness.

The Catholic Church adheres to the Augustinian theory; the Orthodox Churches to the Cyprianic theory, (although they have exercised oekonomia in application of it to instances in which schismatic bodies have returned to communion).

Frankly, the Augustinian theory has been or certainly has become a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church. It effectively assures that all manner of independent hierarchs, both those who pursue their perceived vocation with spiritual and intellectual honesty and those who are episcopi vagante in the most perjorative connotation accorded to the phrase, can sleep at night with at least a modicum of assurance that they possess valid episcopal orders, unless form or intent are at issue. The time-honored practice in the so-called "independent" Catholic and Orthodox movements of garnering multiple episcopal consecrations or, subsequently, being re-consecrated sub conditione is effectively a means of leveraging the Augustinian theory.

Most such hierarchs operate on the premise that "more is better" or "there has to be at least one good one here somewhere". With most having an episcopal genealogy that traces back through an average of 30 ancestral lines of succession, from combinations of dissident Latin Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox hierarchs, they can feel reasonably secure. Those lines which cannot be proven valid because there is serious doubt as to the validity of one actor (e.g., the so-called Melkite-Aneed Line) can and do feel comfortably buffered by Duarte and Ofiesh Lines.

People sometimes point to subsequent acts by bishops of these "Churches" which break faith with Catholic doctrine and erroneously perceive these as breaking the line of apostolic succession. For instance, no bishop, regardless of the validity of his episcopal orders, can validly ordain a woman. But, that he did so would not invalidate his subsequent ordination of a man, with proper intent and according to proper form. So, it is possible to go rather far afield theologically yet still retain apostolic succession.

None of this is to say that all such entities have valid orders or sacraments (e.g., the Liberal Catholic Church is certainly suspect), but an inordinate amount of effort has to be put into tracing and verifying or rejecting such when presbyters or hierarchs of these Churches are received into communion.

(Reportedly, the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Confession ... (long) greatly facilitated doing so in its own cases. They are said to (have) dutifully send notice of each episcopal ordination to Rome which, in turn, notifie(d) the OCC of its canonical displeasure - an exchange that reputedly trace(d) back more than a century biggrin . You have to sometimes look at the light side; I know it's sick - humor me - I picture clerical minions on each side, situated in subterranean rooms, cranking out elaborate documentations with seals affixed and dispatching them posthaste to their counterparts.)

The Orthodox Churches, relying on the canonically legal status of the hierarch conferring orders (his status in communion with a recognized jurisdiction to which the Church accords canonical status), have a much simpler task before them in assessing validity and, since they do not make the distinction of licitness, the end result is clear-cut.

Given its historical ties to the Cyprianic theory, it stands to reason that the Orthodox sometimes will not accord validity to Catholic orders or sacraments and that any do so must be seen as an exercise of charity on their part, applying a measure of recognition to the common historical origins of Catholicity and Orthodoxy. We, as Catholics, can dislike the fact that all do not choose to do so, but it is not our place to impose upon others our theological precepts and require that they adopt them.

The potentially most ironic consideration here is that, applying the Augustinian theory, the Catholic Church would in some instances likely accept the validity of presbyteral and episcopal orders, and, consequently, sacraments, of "independent Orthodox" (and by that I do not mean those essentially mainstream Orthodox Churches which are typically termed "non-canonical" or "of iregular status", such as ROCOR or the "True" Churches, but those of the so-called "independent movement") whom the Orthodox themselves would, rightfully, never deem to be of their Communion, under even the most liberal of interpretations.

Quote
Even the Orthodox think that a priest from this line would not have to be re-ordained, and that someone who received Baptism-Chrismation by them would not have to be Chrismated in order to enter the Church.


I think you'd find that, in practice, the recognition given by the Orthodox to sacraments administered through the Ofiesh line differs significantly, in large part by how far removed the recipient is from the point of origin. Certainly, there has been some movement among Antiochians toward "rehabilitating" Ofiesh's memory - I think, in part, because he'd thus be less of an embaressment but, the further removed one is from the direct laying-on of the hands of Archbishop Aftimios, the less credence is ordinarily accorded to the validity of sacraments received from his successors of later presbyteral and episcopal generations.

Quote
I find so hard to believe that people who have done so much harm like ... Thuc, by consecrating dozens of strangers without any theological or seminary education, or solid orthodox faith could still transfer valid orders.

There is strong evidence that both men were at least mentally incapable of performing will acts.


The Thuc lines are among the most suspect and least likely to be accorded validity by the Catholic Church because, as you suggest, there are serious questions as to his mental capacity to have conferred the sacrament.

Quote
The results are there: dozens of heterodox and sacrilegous sects (Palmar de Troya for example), New Age sects like the Holy Order of Mans, probable valid orders were given to the so called "Old Catholic" sect, and episcopi vagante.


Dozens is a gross underestimation, my friend. It is said of Joseph Rene Vilatte that he never met a man he didn't want to consecrate as bishop. With no effort whatsoever, I could post links to more than a hundred so-called "independent/autocephalus movement" Churches that label themselves "Catholic" or "Orthodox". (Those don't include the Churches that are actually entitled to be accorded a measure of legitimacy, albeit non-canonical, such as (genuine) Old Catholics, ROCOR, and the "True Orthodox".) These vary from highly organized bodies with temples, clergy, and faithful to "archdioceses" that, on examination, would be found to operate from someone's basement family room and a "patriarch" (one of my favorites) whose pontifical vesture most resembles a sofa throw belonging to a grandaunt of which my grandmother once said "the Sallies (Salvation Army) wouldn't give it to a naked man in a snowstorm, if it were the last piece of cloth they had".

Quote
Is there any official statement on these groups by Orthodox or Catholic Churches?


The closest thing to an official statement from either Church is the recognition by the Cstholic Church of the episcopal and presbyteral orders and sacraments of the Polish National Catholic Church (which would include its constituent Czech, Lithuanian, (Bohemian), and Slovak entities, but does not include its (former?) jurisdiction in Poland). By extension, to accord validity to the PNCC lines, which originated largely from the Old Catholic Church of the Utrecht Communion/Confession, was to hold the OCC/Utrecht lines to be valid, at least to that point in time.

Determinations as to the validity of orders in individual instances are usually not given much publicity because of a desire to not encourage the phenomenon and its proliferation - not that it does much good.

Many years,

Neil


That said, Ramzi's "episcopal" genealogy is from sources that lack any validity under the Cyprianic Theory and are suspect, at best, under the Augustinian Theory (which Rome has, in times more recent than the above explanation, begun to shy from - looking to escape being bound to recognition of those who worked on the notion that it was best to 'get every one you can, there's bound to be a good one somewhere among them'). So, he's right back to where he started - a 'bishop' whose episcopal tree lacks roots. He'll ordain, but there is neither validity nor licitness to his actions.

The problem is that he is a master at word-smithing and photo-oping and the Catholics residing in coal patches and camps that are no longer served by their Churches and suddenly find a welcoming and very Latin looking church setting up shop in what used to be their parish church will too often be taken in by his orchestrated charade.

Many years,

Neil

Addendum: He does, of course, have his episcopal ordination by David Bell, who claims validity of succession thru the Duarte-Costa line (only, which is unusual) - but I haven't quite unraveled the dates in his, which are difficult to follow. And Rome has taken a relatively dim view of more recent lines attributed to that line, so ...

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 02/11/16 12:54 AM. Reason: addendum

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: "Arabic Catholic Church of the East" - A New Vagante Ecclesia [Re: Mark R] #414913 02/11/16 12:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
I
Irish Melkite Offline OP
Global Moderator
Member
OP Offline
Global Moderator
Member
I
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,962
Originally Posted by Mark R
How do people know ROCOR has a history of ordaining vagantes? It is not as though it it publicised and so many I know of went to Jordanville for seminary. And they would likely be rejected by their congregations if they were "off". When I moved to Seattle, the ROCOR priest was an elderly immigrant priest in good standing from Soviet Russia. A good chunk of the parish left to join the Old Calendar Greeks because they labelled him a communist -- and he wasn't a communist.


Mark,

The general Orthodox public may not know, but the denizens of on-line Eastern Christianity, here, at OC, and elsewhere on the web, include a lot of folk who are the institutional memory of both the good and the bad that has happened in our Churches, Catholic and Orthodox. ROCOR's prior experiences with Anthony Blondi, with Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline, with the monastery in Texas, etc, are not so ancient as to be easily forgotten.

And ROCOR isn't alone in this regard. As David said:

Originally Posted by DMD
they are not the only ones in Eastern Orthodoxy with a similar history....too many clerics from other Christian denominations have snookered various Orthodox bishops over the years causing problems in many places.


Frankly, there was a time when episcopi vagantes were a problem chiefly for the Latin Church, until those who had a notion to become the heads of their own Churches discovered that gullibility was rampant among most all Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches and started to turn East in search of valid lines.

If you look at the episcopal succession claimed by vagante bishops, you'll find they are replete with lines tracing to most all of our Churches - Antoine Aneed, Aftimios Ofiesh, Fan Noli, Leon Chechemian, Antonio Alvarez, Walter Propheta, Zurawetsky- Klimovicz, Zuk, and the list goes on.

Now, most all of us have become decidedly more careful in vetting those whom we let approach the altar. (There was a time, only a few decades ago, that a priest seeking to travel between the Melkites and Antiochians - in either direction - would be vetted by little more than a call between the two hierarchs involved). ROCOR appears to not yet have learned the lessons that have come to the rest of us the hard way.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3