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Founding of catholic of old rite #413886
11/29/15 07:56 AM
11/29/15 07:56 AM
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Russia Moscowian oblast
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Bondarew Daniel Offline OP
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Glory to Isus Christ.
I am catholic-traditionalist who moraly bounded with FSSPX who pray in home by oldprinted russian books. I am not sedevacantist.

I started to pray by this book after converting in catholic faith, I to mu great shame dont know znamennyi chant.

I have great devotion to our confessor saint Patapyi (Yemelianov).
I have lestovka podruchnik, ostrog bible, oldprinted kanonnik, rites of liturgy, marrying, baptism, extreme unction, confession, pravilnyye kanony, oktay, obikhodnik.

Are here catholics who pray with old russian books?

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413891
11/30/15 05:17 AM
11/30/15 05:17 AM
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Muscatine, IA
akemner Offline
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Yes. The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania has a nice prayerbook (molitvinik) in English and Church Slavonic.

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413893
11/30/15 05:18 AM
11/30/15 05:18 AM
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Russia Moscowian oblast
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Bondarew Daniel Offline OP
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Is it photian or catholic church?

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413896
11/30/15 01:17 PM
11/30/15 01:17 PM
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Posts: 6,314
Hollidaysburg, PA
theophan Offline
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Bondarew Daniel:

Slavas Isusu Christu:

Welcome to the forum.

The Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania, USA, is old rite Orthodox in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Moscow Patriarchate.

Bob
Moderator

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413900
11/30/15 10:52 PM
11/30/15 10:52 PM
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Asia
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Messdiener Offline
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Bondarew Daniel,

There is a small following of the Old Rite among Eastern Catholics, but most of us are not formally Russian Greek Catholics.

May I ask, which prayer book are you using? Also, can you tell us more about Saint Patapyi?

Messdiener

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413901
12/01/15 12:14 AM
12/01/15 12:14 AM
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Bondarew Daniel Offline OP
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I use books of belokrinian print. Saint Patapyi was yediniverian hieromonk but after a lot reading of patristic books in Kievan lavra converted to catholicism. During civil war he was because of calumny from anticatholics in prisons of all forces - german, communists and whiteguardians.
In soviet time he was jodged to imprisonment 10 years because he was helping peasants to pay taxes and authorities blames him in proselitism for money (it is all lay, he helped people of all religions and preached honestly).
In camp on Solovki he united with another catholic priests in community, he served lityrgy every sunday and in all holidays, worked for this time in another days, sometimes 12-14 hours in day.
Was liberated in 1936 preterminally, died in Karelia in deportation.

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #413905
12/01/15 05:29 PM
12/01/15 05:29 PM
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Messdiener Offline
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Thank you for sharing that.

Do you know of any articles or webpages about Saint Patapyi (in English or Russian)? I would like to learn more!

About the books, do you mean prayer books published by the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Белокриницкая иерархия)? Where do they sell these books? Any online shop?

Last edited by Messdiener; 12/01/15 11:28 PM. Reason: typo
Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Messdiener] #413952
12/07/15 06:24 PM
12/07/15 06:24 PM
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Canada
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Are there any icons of the Holy Hieromartyr Potapy?

I received my Belokrinitsa prayerbooks through an Old Believer friend in Kyiv - it would be interesting to find out how to connect with them directly!

Spasy Khrystos!

Alex the old believer (in communion with Rome)

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #414731
01/30/16 08:48 AM
01/30/16 08:48 AM
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california
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I myself own the Old Orthodox Prayer book. I make my own Lestovkas as well and am greatly impressed by the piety of Pre_NIkonian Russia, especially how the Patriarch of Antioch, when visiting, said that all the laity have surpassed the desert fathers in their daily lives!

I am wondering, do you think this particular prayer book is indicative of what prayer was like during the time of St. Sergius of Radonezh? Was there much liturgical progress of the 13th-17th century in Russia?

It would just be nice to tell people who question the "Catholicity" of such a prayer book that these prayers were used by a Saint who is himself included in the ROMAN Martyrology.

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #414750
02/01/16 07:19 AM
02/01/16 07:19 AM
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Prayer books are a fairly modern phenomenon. The morning and evening prayers in the Old Orthodox Prayer Book are taken from the Ustav Domashney which probably didn't exist around St. Sergius' time. It's more likely that literate Christians would use the midnight hour for morning prayer and compline for evening.

In terms of liturgy, there really wasn't a single standard old rite liturgy, and the Nikonians raised this fact as evidence of the need to adapt the Greek books. But things were probably not that different. The liturgical prayers are all quite ancient and their catholicity is indubitable since it's an Orthodox prayer book.

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #414775
02/02/16 01:31 AM
02/02/16 01:31 AM
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The Servant of God Father Patapios Emilianov was a Russian Orthodox presbyter in Nizhnaja Bogdanovka. In an effort to bring Popovotsy (priested) Old Believers into communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, the latter agreed that those who did so would be permitted to retain their historic praxis and unique spirituality. These were known as Edinovertsie or Uniate Russian Orthodox and Father Patapios' parish was such a former Popovotsy community.

In 1918, Father Patapios sought to enter communion with the Catholic Church. He was received, in orders, by Metropolitan Andrij and accompanied by his parishioners, numbering 852 adults. During the early '30s, Father Patapios, together with many Russian Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs, was arrested and transported to the gulags. On 14 August 1936, he was martyred in odium fidei at Nadvojtsy in the Republic of Karelia.

There are no books or webpages specifically devoted to him, as far as I know. The only photo of which I'm aware is copied on the Directory at http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/find-a-parish-mainmenu-111?sid=524:by_church.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Mar_Babai] #414790
02/03/16 06:07 PM
02/03/16 06:07 PM
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Canada
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Originally Posted by Mar_Babai
I myself own the Old Orthodox Prayer book. I make my own Lestovkas as well and am greatly impressed by the piety of Pre_NIkonian Russia, especially how the Patriarch of Antioch, when visiting, said that all the laity have surpassed the desert fathers in their daily lives!

I am wondering, do you think this particular prayer book is indicative of what prayer was like during the time of St. Sergius of Radonezh? Was there much liturgical progress of the 13th-17th century in Russia?

It would just be nice to tell people who question the "Catholicity" of such a prayer book that these prayers were used by a Saint who is himself included in the ROMAN Martyrology.


Hello Mar Babai!

You make your own lestovkas? Do you sell them? Could you provide a picture of one of them here?

Alex

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #414791
02/03/16 06:10 PM
02/03/16 06:10 PM
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Yes, this is highly likely and also since the Midnight Hour and Compline don't have many variable portions making it easier to memorize - an important consideration given how expensive candles were. The same holds true for Western early morning and compline services.

Alex

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: Bondarew Daniel] #414937
02/12/16 07:22 AM
02/12/16 07:22 AM
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I think it's important to understand that, while the "old believers" did obviously preserve a lot of old Russian traditions and practices, in some ways they were just as innovative and revisionist as the Nikonian party. For one thing, their hardening of a snapshot of local Russian practice as THE Orthodox practice- a sort of universalizing parochialism- was an innovation. It was a sad culmination of the Josephite movement and its framing of Russia as the "Third Rome." In liturgical matters this parochialism was enshrined at the Stoglav council of 1551, which, IMO, bears as much blame for the schism as the 1666 council, since it implicitly put the Russian church at odds with the rest of the Orthodox world by condemning any liturgical practice different from theirs. Over time, the Josephite attitude metamorphosed into a conception of the Tsar as the final defender of Christianity. When, at last, the Russian church and, most importantly, the Tsar betrayed this conception, the "Old Believers" were thrown into a strange utopian retreat- hence their fixation of the myth of the invisible city of Kitezh. With the absence of sacraments, the emphasis was put upon ritual and textual correctness and outward practices. So while, yes, the "Old Believers" have a connection to the practices of medieval saints like St. Sergius, their roots are perhaps more profoundly found in strange ideas that arose in the 1500's.

Re: Founding of catholic of old rite [Re: SwanOfEndlessTales] #414938
02/12/16 07:43 AM
02/12/16 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales
I think it's important to understand that, while the "old believers" did obviously preserve a lot of old Russian traditions and practices, in some ways they were just as innovative and revisionist as the Nikonian party. ... their roots are perhaps more profoundly found in strange ideas that arose in the 1500's.
Very interesting and informative observations.

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